what was vietnamization and how did the army support this policy ? How did the army begin to withdraw forces out of Vietnam . And what was the impact on combat operations ? What role did the army play in the Cambodian incursion For answers to these questions and more insights . Stay tuned . Welcome to the U . S . Army history and Heritage podcast , The official podcast of the United States Army Center of Military History . The Center of Military History , writes and publishes the army's official history , manages the US Army Museum enterprise and provides historical support throughout the U . S . Army . Hello everyone and welcome back to the United States Army history and Heritage podcast . I'm lee Reynolds , the strategic communications officer for the Center of Military History . In this our fourth episode of a five part series on the Vietnam War , we are discussing the army activities in Vietnam from 1969 to 1970 . Joining me again to lead us through this discussion is Vietnam War historian Dr eric b Villard , Welcome back ERic and thanks for joining me . Thanks for having me again . So again , just looking back at your your background , Doctor Velarde is the digital military historian for the U . S . Army Center of Military History and one of the army's leading Vietnam war historians . He wrote a volume in one of the U . S . Army combat operations in the Vietnam war series titled staying the course , october 1967 2 , 1968 , which was published in December of 2017 . He's currently working on the next book in that series covering October 1968 ? To December 1969 . And outside of CMH Dr . Ballard is the founder of the Vietnam War History Foundation , a nonprofit organization that has over 44,000 Facebook members . Very impressive . He has also appeared as a historical advisor and analyst on many documentary projects , including two ken Burns and Lynn Novick for the Vietnam war documentary series . Um , ERIC and anything I'm missing that you want to highlight . I think that covers the bases pretty well . Again , always happy to talk about the Vietnam War and this is a very interesting period that I think not as many people probably know about . So , so let's just jump right into it . Um , we're now looking at the US Army activity in Vietnam starting in 1969 . So just set the table for us when , when we left this after the last episode . Uh , the um , what was the situation on the ground in 1968 and I know what General Westmoreland just left to become army chief of staff . And now we had General Creighton Abrams as the McVie commander . So just pick it up there . Right ? So , so Creighton Abrams is now by june of 68 . Um , he's in command of McVie , although again , really policy wise , not a lot changes , Westy and Abrams um Really were a great partnership . They worked together for a year , they saw the war in a very similar way . And so if you're looking at the , you know , end of 1968 , the war has been going on a very intense level . The main thing that's happening is the U . S . Presidential election . Right ? So you have president johnson has already announced he's not running . So it is his vice president hubert Humphrey , the democrat running against Richard Nixon , the republican and the communists in hanoi are watching this very closely . You know , because depending on who gets elected , uh it could make a difference in how the war is fought . What were they both promising in that campaign ? In terms of actual specifics ? Uh , what it came down to was Nixon because of his credentials as a really strong anti communist talk . And he had been vice president for Eisenhower right for eight years . He hinted that he would use stronger , tougher measures to bring an end of the war . Now he didn't specify what those were , but he basically sort of said i in in essence , I have a secret plan . Um I will be able to do this in a way that johnson or Humphrey um can't . And so that's that's what he's that that's the card he's playing now to sort of negate that uh President johnson , you know , in his final months in office , he announces that there's going to be the end of rolling thunder . So this happens at the very beginning of november a few days before the election , He says we're going to stop bombing North Vietnam or the vast majority of it as a goodwill gesture to spur diplomacy . So that's a major um change in the war . But in the end , Nixon wins resident , it's a close , it's a fairly close election , but Nixon definitely wins . So he's president now , you know , January 20 , 1969 . Um And what policies did he begin to implement ? So one of the first things he does is he calls for his advisers , including um Henry Kissinger , who's a special adviser , would later be secretary of state to do a sweeping review of Vietnam policy . Alright , what's happened over the last eight years ? How did we get here ? How do we get out ? Because the fact is , Nixon doesn't really have a secret plan to get out of the war . I mean , he really doesn't have a magic formula . He realizes he's kind of in a bind . I mean , the best thing he can hope for is is keeping a communist uh scared enough of him that that that Nixon might do something that that that johnson didn't . But the fact is he doesn't have a secret plan . So Kissinger was his secret plan . I guess Kissinger was a secret plan . But but so even as Nixon , his advisers are studying , like what do we do ? The Communists Have launched another phase of the general offensive . This is sometimes called Tet 69 actually taps in a few days after tet . But the point is that it is weaker than all the phases that came before however , and this is significant . One of the things the Communists do is they start lobbing rockets into in a Saigon , which is something they've done earlier but had stopped doing for four or five months . This absolutely angers Nixon because when johnson um had had this stopped the bombing , one of the very few concessions he got from the Communists was leave the cities alone . And now the Communists are again lobbying rockets and in Saigon . So this leads directly in the middle of March to Nixon very secretly with Abrams and his other folks , he says , let's begin a secret bombing campaign against cambodia , right ? Because there's a Viet Cong and North Vietnamese bases across the border that we've never been able to get to . So they begin what becomes known as Operation menu . Um part of the reason the first strike uh is a location called breakfast . And that's because Nixon was having breakfast at the White House . So they called the target breakfast . And so it became lunch dinner , any rate operation menu . So so for the first time in the war U . S . B 52 s are actually bombing targets in cambodia . Now this is a secret , this is so secret that like even on the airplanes , only the pilot and navigator know that they've crossed in the Cambodian territory . So very , very close hold . But this is where that begins and it's part of his frustration again that , that the Communists , even though peace talks have started in paris aren't budging . So this is where that begins . And again , it will go on for years and the public gets of it . But this is the main thing that happens , Nixon is looking for A way forward for the next , you know , three or 4 months . Again , more of the same . This is when Hamburger Hill happens , for example , in in May of 1969 . Um , so they're still fighting throughout the country . And in this particular battle , this is up in I Corps . You're talking about Hamburger Hamburger Hill because they're up near the border with Laos , or cambodia with Laos with Laos . And uh , and and despite what some people are written or some people thought when Abrams takes over , he doesn't Do a 180 , he doesn't say , Okay , we're just gonna give up search and destroy operations . No , no . In fact , Abrams is constantly asking for permission to go into Laos going to cambodia to use force . So this battle that takes place in this remote valley in I Corps , the ASHA Valley Over 10 or 11 days . And we're living through 10 March to 21 March Is the elements of the one of first airborne fighting , a North Vietnamese regiment on this hill 937 . And what was the importance , the significance of the importance the hill itself was not important . But the valley was uh the ASHA Valley was the main logistical hub for the North Vietnamese and I Corps . And in order for Nixon's policy to , to succeed , even at this stage , he's beginning to think about pulling back forces . You need to buy time for the South Vietnamese . So that's why this battle happened . If you can cut their supply lines and by taking the hill , what they americans end up doing basically is finished closing off the valley . So they do buy time for the south Vietnamese . But it's a costly battle . It's uh , it's , it's an absolutely brutal battle . And the rock assassins . The third italian one 87th , particularly distinguish themselves . But again , you know , this is still a period of very heavy fighting because Nixon needs to buy time . Right . And it's interesting with that battle . It's called hamburger Hill . How did it get that nickname ? Well again , Hill 937 is What it was first known because it's not 937 m above sea level . The local name is Dong Ap bia . But at the end of the battle , one of these paratroopers American paratroopers who you know who lived these horrific 11 days took a c ration lid and scrawled on it , hamburger hill and then stuck it with a knife on a , on a piece of wood and basically that was his sort of personal statement . This has been a meat grinder . And so the name of hamburger Hill store the images that you see before and after . It's just completely torn up . I mean it looks like ground beef . This is , this is , this is again , this is an Iwo Jima World War two style battle where the enemy is , you know , dug into tunnels and massive bombing and fighting uphill and monsoons . It was about as bad as it got . So that , you know , hamburger Hill is an app . It is an apt name for it . So after that battle , then , um , sometime soon after that , President Nixon announces his , his , his road to peace I guess . And what was that ? What was this is sort of the official announcement happens in June of 69 and that the term that , that he uses for it and that we tend to use is vietnamization . Um , and he means by that a gradual process by , with , by which american combat forces pull out of South Vietnam uh , and hand over , you know , a lot of their equipment to the south Vietnamese . But this is a process that will take several years . It's not like we're all just getting on a boat leaving tomorrow . Um , even at this point in the war , there's still widespread belief among the americans and even south Vietnamese that if this is managed properly again , it'll be another Korea . There will be a south Korea that was hailed by South Vietnam . So that's what Vietnamization means . So the second half of 69 The withdrawals are um , not massive , but you do pull out part of the us 9th infantry division and the third Marine Division goes home . So about 75,000 troops actually leave the country by the end of the year at the height . So before the withdrawals began , what were the numbers of US troops ? Us Mac these peak strength uh Got close to 540,000 personnel . Uh and this is , this is early 1969 . Hit that peak strength . And did the announcement and the beginning of the withdrawals have any effect on the paris peace talks ? Part of the idea of withdrawal was was actually to strengthen South Vietnam's hand at the talks by saying , look , the americans have so much confidence in this that they're pulling the troops out . No , the bottom line is no , it didn't actually have an immediate effect . But um it it did start to create some um some friction because the South Vietnamese as much as they , you know , again wanted the war to be over . We're very unsure about this process . They weren't sure how quickly the americans would leave and if something bad happened , would we come back ? So there's even between Nixon and the South Vietnamese president too , there's the beginning of a little bit of distrust because american priorities are beginning to diverge of South Vietnamese priorities . So as the withdrawal began , how did this affect the types of missions or tactics that were taking place in the field for the army ? So the initial units they pulled out were chosen partly with that in mind . So the ninth , the two brigades of the ninth Infantry Division that were pulled out , they were pulled out of the Mekong Delta . So the southern part of the country um that was an area that um was now more under south music control . And so the feeling was okay , that was an area we could afford . So that decision was that and then the Third Marine Division , part of the reason they pulled them out is you have a bombing halt on the GMC . So the the demilitarized zone where the Third Marine Division was was now fairly quiet . So the immediate impact was pretty small . I mean Operations through under 69 continue pretty much as they had before . Um The real impact would come the following year . And the and the point here is that it wasn't quite where , how quickly we're going to pull out um theoretically we're going to do it again over the space of three or four years , but you know , it was planned to be phased out and when they are leaving , what about their equipment , are they leaving stuff for the Vietnamese in some cases um A whole unit , like an artillery unit would literally hand over all their equipment um which which honestly um logistics , logistics people were like perfectly happy with that because a lot of that kind of beat up old equipment and rather than not take it back . So yes , hand it over to the South Vietnamese . Um , there was also uh in some cases , um , you know , handing over entire firebase is landing zones and other encampments . Now . Part of the issue of course is if you have like a U . S . Brigade leaving a base , but a South Vietnamese battalion takes over , which is like , you know , a much smaller organization , then there's kind of the question of , well , can we defend this whole thing ? But that , yes , turning over equipment is , is part of this whole process , our advisors are staying now , just keep that in mind . We're still advising , we're still giving them stuff . In fact , we're giving them more stuff by this point . The South Vietnamese army is entirely equipped with modern M sixteens for example and they're getting more and more modern tanks , armored personnel carriers , jet fighters , you know , all the stuff that we have been accustomed to . So at the same time the advisors are staying continue to train them , we continue to arm them because I think that was part of the point of the vietnamization was as we draw down , we hand the war over the equipment so that the South Vietnamese could and again , in fairness hopefully defend the south Vietnamese had always done most of the fighting in the war . They had always taken the most college . It was never that they were not fighting the thing , the South Vietnamese lacked . However , they lack the capability to fight . Big unit conventional battles like we had , they were so spread out across the country because they're so they had to worry about all the , you know , village guerrillas in the pacification . Right ? So that was the main thing that um we were hoping they would be able two to learn before we left . But again it's , it really is an open question . Here's the thing , once you start pulling american troops home , you cannot close us those . That barn door . American public likes it . The anti war protests go down right , american troops like it , but you really can't reverse that trend once it gets going . And and and uh so how did that start ? You know , throughout the rest of 1969 How many troops had withdrawn by the end of that year ? And were there any significant battles that were taking place ? So the war actually begins to kind of quiet down in the second part of 69 ? Um partly because uh the American in the South Vietnamese had done such a good job beating up in the communist last year . The communists were really kind of in bad shape . Uh the communists now that the americans were withdrawing Also change strategy around , you know June of 69 , the communist gave up this whole general offensive idea and now they're going to wait it out . So they a lot of their big units go into hiding . So there were actually Quiets down and there isn't as much fighting in this period , about 75,000 US troops leave by the end of the year , A significant amount . Um so when 1970 begins um it looks like vietnamization is more or less going according to schedule . But again There's always , you know , something that will throw a curve ball and that's exactly what happens in early 1970 . And you're talking about the Cambodia , the traditional safe haven for the communist forces in cambodia and Laos are now being challenged . Right ? So the situation in cambodia uh Changes dramatically in in in March of 70 . And who who initiates that because I know that General Westmoreland um that was a big sticking point for him . He wanted to go after them there or or even further into north . He had for a long time and then Abrams after him was always asking for authority to go in limited incursions . But what happens is the long serving head of cambodia , Prince Sihanouk uh is out of the country , was out of the country's Defense minister overthrows the government . Now this law and novelist Defense minister is much more pro Western and uh he is becoming very alarmed to get with the amount of communists in the country . So there's now political upheaval in cambodia . And as a result of that , Nixon sees an opportunity . Now you have a friendly leader in cambodia says could you please help us get rid of all these Vietnamese communists who were on our border ? And are these bombing um , secret bombings in cambodia still taking place ? It's still taking place again , um , still secret from the public . Um , they're hitting some of these base areas , but again , they're just right across the border . So unless you were actually there and there , you know , there's really no civilian , not many civilians out there , you wouldn't have known this is different . This is going to be a month long major military incursion into cambodia at from the Mekong Delta up to the central Highlands . It's going to be the south Vietnamese and the americans ? Full division . This is yeah , multiple multiple points of entry . And again it is a limited encouraged in the sense that americans have to be out in a month . They can only go into a certain depth to the south Vietnamese going to or is this America South Vietnamese when in fact Southeast winning first and they actually stayed longer and americans are out by the end of june south . These actually stayed longer . But this is actually an opportunity for the south needs to show what they can do as conventional forces and they actually quit themselves pretty well . So what was the , what was the goal of these missions and which army units participated in ? So the goal of the mission was to get these vietcong North Vietnamese supply sanctuaries that had been there for years and years and they're just piled to the rafters with supplies , weapons , you know , trucks , you name it . Um , it's all right there . So the americans in the south means that went in or going in to get this stuff in in three core around Saigon for example , you have the first cavalry division , You know , you have the 11th armored cavalry division up the highlands of the fourth Infantry Division . A lot of different units are are going and they are finding , I mean some of the american soldiers that I have spoken to them when they come in these depots , I mean their jaws are always hitting the floor , the amount of stuff that's there . So they do find a lot of equipment . The North Vietnamese pretty much don't resist because they figure there's overwhelming force , they just retreat deeper into cambodia , but in the short term it actually does achieve that objective . The problem is , it reignites the anymore movement back in the United States , right , because Nixon had been saying we're pulling troops out , we're winding down the fighting is diminishing it all of a sudden wait a minute we're going to cambodia . What is happening in this ? Oh , so yeah , so they're thinking we're expanding the war now geographically and what was the Cambodian role in this ? Was it just like , okay guys do what you want , We won't interfere or did they assist the rightist in the government uh , basically gave permission for the americans in southeast the Cambodian army itself was was small and not very effective . That's why he had not done anything about the communist . So they kind of sat back and let the americans do what they're gonna do . Um So the cambodians , the government has a very small role . This is an allied operation . Again that lasts about a month . Um but it does reawaken the anti war movement . You've probably seen one of the more famous photos of the war . The Kent state protests the National guards coming and opening fire on protesting students . And this is all because of cambodia incursion . Yeah one of the dark another dark day during that time period . And it wasn't that was the National Guard that opened fired on and what happened there ? Well they opened fired on students at Kent state um killing and wounding several in the very very foma photos of of a young female student uh crouching down you know with sort of mouth screaming over a dead student . So here you have um again another example of of just these the war coming coming home and causing these divisions . Um And so um what was the effect after the Cambodian incursion ? What was the effect on the overall war and the strategy how so cambodia cambodia incursion you might say was kind of the that was the last hurrah of big U . S . Combat operations . Right ? That was that was the , so after cambodia a lot of those big U . S . Divisions end up coming home . So like the first infantry division comes home and other units some stay like the first cavalry stays the 1 70 thursday's the american states . But but By the autumn of 1970 , the US has pretty much gotten out of the game of big offensive operations and they are totally focused on trying to get the south Vietnamese up to speed and what , what are the north Vietnamese and Viet Cong doing during this time period . This is actually their darkest hour . If you read their histories , 60 , 69 and into 17 , this is their lowest point because um , things like the phoenix program talk about that anyway . I just , yeah , at least in passing , um , it was not a CIA assassination program . The phoenix program just think of it as a a south Vietnamese effort to identify and remove from the battlefield . All these secret Viet Cong agents who were running the shadow government . And so a lot of it was just police work basically . Okay . In some cases , yes , they probably arrested and killed the wrong people . Um , but from the communist own histories , they said this absolutely devastated their infrastructure and uh , the United States and the South Sudanese realize how effective they were getting . They yeah , they were getting in a sense that this was working again , it's just not mostly um again the C . I A . Were only tangentially involved . It was mostly army advisors working with , you know , South Vietnamese ? But yes , we we we did understand this was putting the pinch on them . So they were since their guerilla movement was drying up and this meant in in hanoi and this would have implications for our next episode knowing that um they they change their strategy again and they decided okay , we're not gonna win , we will not conquer the country through guerilla forces . We're going to have to build up a conventional force and actually take the country in America is on the way out . Right , right . But so they're gonna wait them out , they're gonna wait them out and the pressure and in the meantime build up the capacity so that they can basically launch a conventional blitzkrieg of South Vietnam . So now through the end of 1970 any changes to that or is this just kind of on this ? Is this is this is this is just um you know , it is moving in that direction . Um That is , you know , The communist , that is the sort of longer-term strategy . So they know in 18 months or two years they'll be ready . The Americans by that point should be out . Um hopefully the Southeast will be ready . Hard to say . But part of the problem with this vietnamization of course is is the effect it has on the american soldiers because you know , by 69 70 . Um once it's clear we're leaving , that begins to affect morale , right ? I mean , who wants to be the last person killed in Vietnam for war , we're clearly not gonna win . Um , the army is also beginning to feel the effects of the cultural revolution . The civil rights , racial tension is growing . Drug use is increasing . Um , there are some incidents of disobedience and even , uh , incidents they call fragging , where usually what that means is , um , disgruntled soldiers will , will , will roll a a smoke grenade into an officer's tent . In some cases , it's literally a fragmentation . You normally , they don't try to kill them , but they're basically a warning like , hey lifer Don't try to make your career , you know , at my expense . So there are some , some morale and discipline problems beginning to have . Its , it's interesting , you know , they know we're pulling out , maybe they don't realize , you know , they still may have to stay there 12 months , but eventually coming out . So it's interesting to see that , um , it's having more of a negative impact on , on morale , right ? Is that overall what you're describing or was there a positive , I mean , it's positive since , you know , people could imagine a time when they would come home . Um , I should also point out that most of these incidents that happened , um , like the racial tension and indiscipline , we're in rear rear units , not , not frontline units , I mean if you're out there in the field , you need to trust your fellow soldiers . So , so , so they actually were continuing to function pretty well , but on top of everything and all this , this , this is in late 69 when the my lai massacre hits the public , Seymour Hersh investigative journalists , you know , um , publishes a story and it's , you know , catches fire and this is when most americans learn . Yeah , because the , the actual incident happened back in March of 68 . Yeah , so now we're a year and a half later , they're finding out about this graphic pictures , you know , very uh precise reporting . Um , so how did that impact operations in Vietnam ? We'll talk about the impact on the American people , but in Vietnam , were there immediate changes that we saw ? Um , actually , no , the main thing that happens is that the army well , two things one , the army launches an actual serious full inquiry led by general peers . So the report is called the peers inquiry that really gets to the bottom of things . And , and , and unlike the americal division initial investigation , which was a sham , this was serious . They want to hold people accountable . But the other thing that happens is the army spends a lot of time talking to its own soldiers and emphasizing this is not acceptable , right rules of engagement , um , cards and how you treat not only POWs but detainees or just average Vietnamese operationally . No , it doesn't change how we function , but there's a sudden real emphasis on on , on , you know ethics , you know , professional um conduct and standards and I think that's a point moving forward , you know , years later to up until the present . Yeah , Right , Absolutely . I mean in some sense , I think a lot of people feel that that you know , a lot of the perpetrators of the massacre really kind of got off . I mean at the end of the day , you only had a couple of people like Lieutenant Calley , you know , who were brought up in charges , but a lot of folks essentially you sort of got a slap on the wrist because there wasn't enough evidence or or whatever , but the fact is everyone knew how bad it was and so nowadays in the army , you know , we see the effects , this is why you have um again um judge advocate generals , you know , embedded at all operational levels and reminding people that we are the american army , we we are not barbarians , we do things differently . Yeah , great emphasis going into combat and I can tell you as a combat veteran , great emphasis on ethics and rules of engagement and uh a lot of this is I mean some of that stuff existed beforehand , but it exists I think to the capacity does now in large part because of what happened there . So the army learned its lesson and um made changes and I would say again shout out to our own people here , you know , a few years ago we put on a symposium all about , you know the my lai massacre . Again this was and you know mr bowery , our executive director , he's the one who said let's do this . And so if you can find it online , um but it's it's really fast and um being open and honest about what happened and understanding how we learned from that and how we improved ourselves and and moved on and and that's something that I think the army does fairly well in general with . So all right , good . And then just just to finish up on on that uh the impact in America , how did that change the way americans were perceiving things ? Well , certainly the you know , the my lai massacre was was shocking . And again some of the worst details in fact were not publicized . It could have been even worse . But I think at this point um most americans were just tired of the war uh aware of the you know , the mounting costs um wanting just want it to be over . And so when this thing happened , one of the things I think it it did was again it just it really sharpened those divisions and so many people , especially like you know , they say one of the things was you never trust anyone over 30 . So there's like this youth culture , this like all the establishment people , all these old white men , they're all liars , the military allies , you can't trust anyone . And so I think at home , you know , there's a there's a sort of more militant um uh you know , angle to the anti war movement and some people in fact are beginning to think of , you know , using violence themselves to try to stop the war . Um and then I just want to get back to something you mentioned earlier , we we talked a little bit about the morale that some of the challenges that we're having . Um so what did the army do to help mitigate the morale issues ? It uh it tried uh a number of things and again , it's sort of like let's try this and see what happens . Um they would include things like um rap sessions . So they would , you know , get soldiers together . Black soldiers , white soldiers in a sort of controlled environment and and have a discussion like , okay , so why is it that that , you know , a lot of areas they would self segregate , right ? You know , the black soldiers would live in one place . And so and so part of it is that um part of it is , you know , they saw this as also being very much part of the drug problem , right ? So they really cracked down on drugs . So like for example any american soldier who went on vacation or they got the full search , I mean , and especially places like Australia which did not want drugs , You got in big big big trouble um if you were found with drugs , so they they crack down on drugs , but the fact is that the army doesn't quite know how to solve this thing . They investigate . Um you know , if his allegations , other allegations of atrocities , um you know , the army follows up , but the fact is this is a problem that they will spend years on , right , alright . And then , I mean you still see some things today . So that is just a lingering um human issue . I think it's not just just in in the military , but it's um part of society we're always trying to improve on . And one last thing about morale . Um I just think it's worthy to touch on um in our overall discussion about Vietnam is some of the things that were done for morale , some of the entertainment you had the um arm surface Vietnam network . Yeah , and and entertainers who came and and can you talk about the impact of those on the morale and and and I would say almost without exception , you talked to a Vietnam veteran and there's a few things that bring a smile to their face . So , you know , they love the armed forces rear neck . You know , they they good morning the uh chris Noel , who you and I , you know her particularly well . Um I mean , she's she's sort of a living saint . Um This is , she was the quote unquote weather girl , but she was a DJ , but more importantly , she went out in the field boots . I mean to the most remote fire bases . You know , she she had had a career in Hollywood . She was an entertainer . Um This was a , you know , a person who very easily because stayed back in southern California but said you know , no , I want to be out there with the troops . And so there's one quote about her from , from a soldier that I read that said that um she got me through Vietnam . Yeah , it's just amazing . And and of course you had all these USO entertainers . Obviously the bob hope show would would would come around but you had just lots and lots of folks and and and not justly famous folks , but you know , you know people who who could , you know , they had their own little band and they said I raised their hands said , yeah , I want to go over there and because not everybody in America at this point was was against uh maybe not against the war , but I wanted to support the troops realized these are our sons and daughters . Our brothers and sisters that are over there . Absolutely . And I think there and you know the entertainers , I think we're very good represent representation of that . I think it personally their feelings were they were you would probably say anti war but they were pro soldier and that's one of the things I think Chris Noel and some others who went over there said , how can you support the war said I'm supporting our troops , you know , that's that's the thing and some of them paid a price for that . They lost their some lost their careers or their careers were negatively affected because of that . Yeah . And I said one of the , I mean , you know , you had some some some big names too and this is uh this is you know , later in the war , but one of my some of the famous photos is when Sammy Davis Jr went up and then with with the cab and he's got the cabbage patch and that smiling face . But I mean you can you can feel , you know , he's like vibing especially with you know , a lot of the black soldiers there . I mean , so you know , I again , there's a whole there's a whole story of Vietnam on on these things alone and and people should never forget that there's a lot of folks who who supported in their own way . Exactly . Well , good . Well , I think that closes out our discussion here today , but as usual , looking for some trivia from the 1969 , time period , you know , this is this is where we just bring up a piece of trivia about that time period that I mean , you know , may wow people or or or just you know , something interesting about that time period that people may not really understand or know Yeah , interesting about the time period . I mean I I I don't know I guess I kind of gravitate back to you know , the entertainers in the US . So but let me just mention something that I've been working on recently . People may not know about there was this um system called MArs M . A . R . S . Military auxiliary relay system . Okay . It still exists actually . What was it ? This is a program where if you were in Vietnam you could go to one of these MARS stations . It was a Signal corps facility and get on the phone and then that person the operator would would bounce a single , you know , across the world through ham radio . So it had ham radio operators all around the U . S . That would act as the phone on the other end . So people could actually talk to their families through ham radio . Oh yeah , awesome trivia . I did not know that anything about that . The army moral system still exists . How fascinating . Alright , well , great . I think that's a that's a good piece of who attributes . So thanks eric uh again , for your discussion and insights today about the Vietnam war . And if anyone wants to learn more about the Vietnam war or army history in general , please explore our website at history dot army dot mil . And you can also access all of our publications about Vietnam from the website . They're also available as free pdf downloads or you can purchase , purchase them from the government publishing office . And if you want to experience tidbits of army history every day , then visit our social media sites on facebook twitter and instagram and join us every week on this podcast for more in depth discussions about army history . As we cover topics from all eras of the US army history , examining battles , soldier experiences , equipment , weapons and tactics . And uh we have one more episode Covering the last few years of the Vietnam War . So be sure you check us out for episode five Of this five part series on the Vietnam War . Thanks for joining us today on the United States Army history and Heritage podcast for the center of Military history . I'm lee Reynolds and until next time we're history . The views expressed in this podcast reflect those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views policies or opinions of the US Army or Department of Defense . For more information about the army's proud history and heritage , go to history dot army dot mil