Who are army historians and what role do they play in preparing soldiers today ? Where do army historians serve ? How can soldiers of all ranks become a part of the army historical program for answers to these questions and more army history insights . Stay tuned . Welcome to the U . S . Army history and Heritage podcast , the official podcast of the United States Army Center of Military History . The Center of Military History , writes and publishes the army's official history , manages the US Army Museum enterprise and provides historical support throughout the U . S . Army . Hello everyone and welcome to the United States Army history and Heritage podcast . I'm lee Reynolds , the strategic communications officer for the Center of Military History . In this episode we're examining the role of army historians and why army history is relevant to soldiers and leaders today , joining me for this discussion . A Doctor Peter Knight and dr robert Kirkland . Thank you gentlemen for being here . Thank you very much . We appreciate it . And doctor , first of all , let's talk a little bit about your background . Dr Peter Knight is currently the chief of the CMH field and international history programs . He joined CMH after retiring from the U . S . Army as a lieutenant Colonel after 23 years of service in the military intelligence branch . Over the course of his military career , Dr Knight also served in two academic postings . He was an instructor and later assistant professor of history at the United States Military Academy at West Point from 2004 to 2007 and he was the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps or ROTC Professor of Military Science at Princeton University . From 2011 to 2014 . Dr Knight is a 1994 graduate of the U . S . Military Academy and he later earned his PhD in history from the Ohio State University . In june of 2006 . Dr Knight is the author of the revised CMH publication , the staff ride fundamentals experiences and techniques , which came out in 2020 and he has led numerous battlefield staff rides for the U . S . Army across the globe . Now , Dr robert Kirkland is a retired army officer also and an independent scholar and consultant . He was the multinational force Iraq historian from 2009 to 2010 where he headed the effort to document the history of that theater . He is a latin american historian and an expert in drug cartel and gang violence in Mexico and central America , which is the center of his current writing and consulting work . Dr Kirkland also taught history for three years at the United States Military Academy and at the University of southern California and he's also a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel . Gentlemen , what am I missing about your backgrounds ? Anything Okay , great , good . It's funny how they mirror each other in many ways but a few years apart from each other . So so first of all let's let's just find out a little bit more about army historians . So , Dr Knight , what is the role of army field historians . Sofield historians is an umbrella term for all personnel in the Department of the Army charged with collecting historically significant information , organizing and maintaining a historical research collection and contributing to the recorded history of the army as a whole in the form of annual historical reports . Uh Command reports when deployed and or operational data reports that capture the significant activities of army organizations on a systematic basis . Well so um you say it's an umbrella term for historians at at different levels . So can you describe some of those different levels ? What what are the army history assets that are available to unit commanders ? Absolutely . So our first our our command historians , much like dr Kirkland here . Uh command historians are school trained academically credentialed D . A civilian or military officers that serve at the division level and higher levels of command to answer commanders , requests for information to inform current and future operational planning , document the history of the command and report the commands history to higher headquarters and ultimately to the U . S . Army Center of Military History . Another entity is the Military history detachments . These are usually two and three person team teams mobilized out of the Reserve or National Guard comprised of 2 to 3 military officers and N . C . O . S . Specifically trained and certified to deploy forward to collect operational data and send it back to CMH . And then finally we have unit historical officers or you H . O . S . For short . These are military officers or non commissioned officers normally assigned at brigade and battalion levels in an additional duty capacity to collect , maintain and report unit specific history in the form of an annual unit history report submitted to the higher headquarters . Well , so why is what is the army so much attention to collecting this history ? How is it , how is it used ? So collecting the army's historical information is absolutely essential to the army's success in its mission of fighting and winning the nation's wars . In order to excel in that mission , the army must be a learning institution , one that can critically analyze and evaluate its past and learn from both its successes and failures and everything in between . If the army does not make the concerted effort from within to capture its past , then that history and all that we could possibly learn from . It is lost forever . The army cannot afford to make that mistake in the american profession of arms , a profession of unlimited liability . There is too much at stake to ignore the lessons and insights we can gain from studying our history . Additionally , the American people are army serves and protects , must better understand the army with less than 1% of our nation's population serving in uniform . It is imperative that our people understand who we are and what we do and how and why we do . Yeah , I mean I would say you know to add on to what pete just said . You know these are busy people out here . I mean who are deployed uh you know meaning the actual operators , the people are you know who are doing military missions every day and you know they're not really thinking about history , they're not thinking about the future , they're not thinking about you know about the historical impact of what they're doing . And so there has to be somebody in the organization you know that you know unit historical officers or at my level the command historian at the multinational force so that the joint level that's actually thinking about it on a daily basis . That is just you know capturing the information and doing that and uh you know that has to happen because if it doesn't you know you're we're gonna lose a lot of information a lot of that , you know history that you know dr nights talking about that we need to be able to bring forward to future generations to be able to build up a spree decor and and unit knowledge of what they accomplished . And so that's really what I see the one of the major roles of of the historian at every of every level . Right ? And so if I was a unit commander right ? So now I I understand I have tools I have assets that I can use . Whether it's a command historian uh M . H . D . Unit historical officer I think right ? You h . O . Um so I know I know I have those tools to collect history but what if I want to use history ? What should I go to ? I know we've talked to when we talked about your your bio that their staff rides . But so can you talk a little bit about how a unit commander can use a staff ride and what other tools are out there for me to use as a unit commander . Absolutely . So to start with the staff ride . Staff ride is an ax exercising critical thought and analysis where uh members of a unit can read a little bit about a campaign or a battle and then and in doing that learn some things about the leaders and the decisions that were made in the results of those decisions and then go out to the field where it actually took place and tie it to the terrain and get it an appreciation of what happened in all of its various dimensions and then be able to analyze and evaluate what happened in the final phase of it . The integration phase where they put this all together and they draw useful insights from that that they can apply in their own military careers to make them better at what they do for the army today and in other ways of using military history history can inform the military decision making process . You can you can do you can write point papers , you can write information papers that you can feed two commanders to give them the background behind how uh certain cultures or certain tribes in Iraq for example , got to the to the political positions that they were currently in and what caused all of that . And and that helps the commander have a background to understand and make better decisions going forward , knowing that that's how they got from Point A to point B in the first place . Right . And and I think , you know , I know CMH has a lot of publications , we have over 600 publications on different battles . I know most people are familiar with our green books from World War Two . I think it's 26 books in that collection , but we have books from all eras of army history . Yeah , yeah , for the green books , it's a lot more than 26 but it's but yeah , it's I think on the bookshelf here , that's what we have . But uh um but I , you know , I'm reminded , you know , people out there , a lot of military history enthusiasts like me um fan of the movie , we were soldiers . But uh I remember seeing in that um and this actually happened that then Lieutenant Colonel Hal moore in preparing to go to Vietnam and work in , you know against the , I don't know if you would call them the insurgents , but the Viet Cong he studied the tactics uh from the indian wars and and and indeed that's useful , right ? When he's looking at what Custer does at the battle of the Little bighorn , somebody who had commanded the cavalry unit in the past . Right . And those analogies are great . So long as you understand the similarities , but also the differences right ? To understand both those enables you to to use the insights drawn in the proper context . Because what you want to avoid is trying to take things out of context , trying to think there's some cookie cutter solution to what happened in the past , that you can apply immediately in the present . That's a very dangerous thing . So , you always want to be cognizant of the similarities and the differences when making historical analogy and that . And that's a great point because I know as the public affairs officer here for the center of military history , I feel a lot of questions from unit commanders , from division uh commanders or even above , we're saying we're we're preparing some type of an operation uh and what do you have that similar to this that we can look at ? So it's it just really reinforces the significance or the importance of having historians out there in the army who are collecting this information and the support from their command to allow them to do so . And and I think um help highlight the importance of that . We have dr Kirkland here with us who can really help address that because you've been out there as a field or simply as a command historian . So tell me about your role and where and when did you serve ? Right , so I was the multinational Force Iraq historian that then halfway through the time I was there became United States Forces Iraq or U . S . F . I . So I was there from mid 2009 to mid 2010 . Uh And so my role there uh as I see is kind of a four fold . One is a collection of pertinent documents of that uh can be used by historians , whether it's at the center for Military History at Central Command or other historical organizations to be able to collect those kind of key documents so that it can be easily be used by writing historians back here in the United States in order to be able to talk or be able to write about the war and and and think about it in in a way that is useful and helpful to commands as we as well as eventually the general public , Can you give an example of what they're so so for example , one of the , one of the key sets of documents was the files of the Commander's Initiative Group . So there's a there's a group that works for the multinational force Iraq commander and they do all of the information that that all the papers and all of the thinking and all that the commanding general has and so uh you know , as kind of a person who , you know , became a part of that staff or got to know some people on the staff . You know , I was able to then ask for those documents and then put them on a hard drive and then that hard drive then went back to center for Military History so that that could be used to , you know , help write these histories . And so part of the job of the historian , I think particularly at the command level is to not necessary ingratiate yourself but to be a trusted agent of everybody involved so that they feel comfortable with you , you know , through your knowledge and through your staff work so that they so that they will give you those kind of documents that will be a benefit to historical organizations such as the Center for Military History . So the example the Commander's initiative group is one of the many different uh commands that I went to our directors I went to when I was on staff . The second thing is uh interviews is going around and interviewing some key the key individuals , particularly the heads of each of the jays , the joint staffs of the J one J two J three , the Chief of Staff of uh of the multinational force who at that time was General joe Anderson , uh you know , getting in with the commanding general to interview him , uh you know , if you're obviously very busy person but getting into interview him uh and other key people in the organization . So it's really uh doing interviews and then figuring out what where the key moments are in the time that you're there and interviewing those people soon after that to get the record recollections of what's going on . So those interviews then are recorded on a digital tape and then transcribed by uh you know , by contractors and then are then able to be read by historians and then used in the historical record . So I'd say that would be , number two . Number three would be sitting in on as many meetings as they're allowed for you to go into . So , you know , the commanders , uh you know , meetings that they have with , you know , the intelligence , uh you know , uh classified briefings , uh , other sorts of meetings , you know , the daily battlefield update update briefs . Uh you know , if senior leaders are coming from , you know , from uh Secretary of State Secretary of Defense and others trying to get in on those meetings as much as as much as possible so that you can record what went on there and be able to summarize , summarize those things as as best you can . So that's number three and then the final one is kind of an informal supervision of the other historians that are actually in the theater . So when I was there , I gathered up twice during the time that I was there , all the historians that were at the division level . So we brought them uh to our headquarters and we kind of disseminate information kind of saw what was going on . Uh if there was a problem with a particular division with the support of the historian uh group there , you know I would try to get involved as best I can to try to smooth things out smooth things over and so you're sort of a informal uh you know kind of head of the historical operation within that particular theater . So those are kind of the four areas I think that that I did when I was there uh that benefited the you know history , you know the collection of history in in the theater . Right ? And I know you have a background as a field artillery officer um and and Pete you were in the intelligence brand . So um I would imagine that as a command historian you you would need to have , you know you can't just have been a historian your whole career , you definitely have to know the army language and and know how to integrate yourself into an operational headquarters to to the point where you are viewed indeed as an asset value added to the staff . And that way they will open up and share the information that you're seeking as a historian to collect because you bring more credibility I think that way to it . And um is there an effort within CMH that when you're selecting historians , command historians people to lead em H . D . S . That they have more of a background in the army ? Absolutely . You know when we're looking especially at the grade levels that you put the for military history detachment for example if we if we're going to put an M . H . D . At an operational headquarters on A . Level where dr Kerr Brooklyn would have been . We'd want an 06 and an 05 there at a minimum because we want people that have the credibility of their rank and experience behind that rank to have that credibility within the headquarters that operates at the four star level uh that those folks will be know what to do to maneuver within a staff to get the access to information they need . We would not want to set up a junior uh company grade officer with a challenge like that . Right ? And and somebody that has more than just historians experience that they've they've been out there in the forest . Absolutely . They gotta walk and chew gum at the same time . They you gotta have some modicum of of of the historians craft but also know how to operate in an army organization . And I think that's important for two reasons . One for the recruiting of historians that you know that they have that but also for those commanders and those staff that are out there that they know and they understand that when they get a historian it's not just an academic that's that this is all I've done all my life that they are soldiers , you know um who who have worked throughout the army so and and shared the same experiences as them . So great , I'm glad we've pointed it out . But um so uh dr Kirkland , what are some of the most impactful and memorable experiences that you had as a command historian ? Yeah , let's say uh you know , first of all is really getting to understand the whole command , which is incredible . You realize the complexity of organizations such as multinational force Iraq . So as a historian , you get to go and interview all sorts of different people of you know , uh the directors of each of the joint directorates uh you know when we had multinational partners I'd interview , you know british uh and other uh you know , of our multinational partners . Uh so you really get a great understanding of the entire organization of the Union and really get some insights from some really great and qualified people at , you know , that you know mostly at the general officer level , but just great individuals that you know , you learn so much while you're you know , collecting this information . Another I'd say another great experience with me was was involved with the embassy , the U . S . Embassy uh in the green zone . So you're remember that the U . S military was snapped linked in with the State Department and other elements of the of the whole whole country effort in Iraq . And so I was involved with interviewing a number of people who weren't even in the military that were part of working with the military and kind of getting their perspective of , you know , the the the effort across the board , because by the time we got to 2009 and 10 , it was it wasn't just a military effort , you know , it was it was all of all of the it was a whole country effort with all the different , you know federal government agencies that are involved in the embassy . And then finally , just being able to interview people like Iraqis for Iraqis who used to be in Saddam Hussein's government , who were actually in Camp cropper , which was the the detention facility inside um inside the green zone , uh sorry , it was outside was outside in Baghdad International Airport area and interviewing some of the key individuals into Saddam whose old Saddam Hussein government to get their perspective on what was going on in in the country just for the historical record . So , people like the former Secretary of State , I think the term was a different , maybe the Foreign Minister , Tariq Aziz was one I also interviewed uh Chemical Ali , I'm not sure what his name was , he was the one who uh who uh you know , who did the atrocities against the kurds during between the uh desert storm and and our invasion in 2003 . And then finally uh the the really the chief of staff to Saddam Hussein , um his name was uh I think it was his last name was Mahmoud and he was very uh insightful as far , as you know , Saddam Hussein and kind of some of the things that were going on inside the Iraqi government , particularly in the years preceding our invasion in 2003 . So you kind of see the historic what's really great about being the historian there was you got you could you were pretty much a person who could go anywhere that they wanted to go . You were I really wasn't supervised supervised of course by the Chief of Staff and by uh you know others , but they pretty much gave me carte blanche to do a lot of different things to be able to go around and you know , that's why as Pete said , you know , you got to be someone who's like at the 0506 level because you know , you got to have knowledge of how things work and you've got to have enough initiative to be able to go out and do those things . So again , all of this is to collect information so that historians that are writing at whatever level we're talking about the army level or wherever we decide whatever part it is can write the history and get a good idea of what was going on . And so I would say those would be the most memorable things that I from my time there and how did people look at you . So when you would go to do an interview , um whether it was US forces or allied forces or even the Iraqis , uh did you get any pushback from them ? It was it was a little easier in 2009 and 10 because things were a little slower than I know that sometimes when you know when when the bullets are flying sometimes a little harder for the historian to get in and do some of these interviews . So when I was there it was a little slower . So I had the ability to get in there and and sit down and and take some time to talk to some of these individuals . So you gotta , you know have knowledge , you gotta have , you know , some personality to be able to , you know uh not go in there and and you know , you have a little bit of fun and uh you know , just just loosen up and and and not take things so seriously . Uh and so you've got to have , you know , those kind of attributes to . Uh , but but no , they in general , I was received very , very well of course you fit yourself into their schedule whenever they have the ability to be able to see you . But Uh in general , I was received very well by by almost everybody that I interviewed . And I understand more so now after working with the center military history for about six years that you collect history , but history really isn't written for 5 , 10 plus years later . Um so dr Kirkland , it's been 12 , almost 13 years since you were in Iraq . Um looking back , how would you say that the work that you did there has contributed to improving the force ? Well , I've seen , you know , some of the some of the information that's come out and it's you you see that , you know , you'll see a footnote where I interviewed a certain person that's being used by , you know , historian at CMH or at other places . So , and I know as the tan books continue to come out , I know that they're , you know , utilizing the material that that I and other historians collected . So I'm always interested in looking at the footnotes because the footnotes indicate . I remember I collected that document for whoever and I would say that's where , you know , my satisfaction comes from is realizing that , you know , well maybe that information would never have been looked at or maybe , you know , maybe that that historical situation wouldn't have been evaluated the way it was . If it wasn't for me collecting or doing that interview or having or you know , deciding to , you know , to uh , you know , to do whatever I decide to do in order to be able to make that happen for the writing historian and you mentioned the 10 books and that's that's the series that the Center Military History is writing about the um oh I . F . And O E . F . So those are , we've got some pamphlets out right now on those . But I know we're working on more extended volumes plus a two volume set Modern War in an Ancient Land , Which is already published . That's been published . And they're working on the third volume in that , I think that takes us from October of 2001 to 2014 . And then we're working on the third volume in that . So from 14 to guess present day . So , so that's good . So that's very fulfilling to see that the work that you did back then is really making an impact . Um , but it's not just for army scholars or historians to write books . This information is available to anybody , right ? To any historian , especially certainly the unclassified studies . Right ? And and and that's certainly by design to try to share this with the widest audience possible to educate them and and and and to enable them to understand what the army does , how it does it , why it does it ? Uh , Because with only 1% of our population obviously serving in uniform , a lot of that connection isn't there ? And this is this helps form part of that connective tissue . If if the american people understand their army better . Uh I think we'll have , you know , more consistent support of what we're doing . Uh and and that's important . Right ? Because again , as a public affairs officer here , I get um , historians outside the military scholars and journalists all the time coming to us for the information like dr Kirkland collected . And um and they used that um , um quite often , but I think you brought up a good point to about classified versus non classified . So a lot of what you all have collected is classified . So how does , how do you , how can you write ? Um , I guess for like senior levels in the army , they can access that material . But um , how can a historian who's trying to write about O E F R O I . F . Access that classified information ? And , and so declassification is a process in and of itself that is very time consuming . And and depending upon , you know , what records we want to get declassified , we can get some level of prioritization in that declassification process . Um , but , you know , the the key thing about it is obviously that classified information does a lot to inform what a historian would write and assess about a given historical event . And so the more time and distance we get from certain events , the more accurate and the more comprehensive our knowledge base becomes , which is that's why it takes such a long time to write things like the green books or the tan books as compared to say , the more immediate lessons learned that the center for Army lessons learned exists to produce and share with the operational force immediately or the Army University press that can focus on a particular topic , uh , and , and not necessarily a comprehensive campaign history , they can produce that a lot quicker . But for the , for the campaign histories that are meant to , to underpin our institutional knowledge and to affect training and doctrine , these things that take years to develop . That is where that , that declassification process becomes important to incorporate that information . Right ? Think think of the when all the Ultra intercepts from World War two became declassified and how that informed World War Two histories , well beyond initial histories that were produced without that information . How long after the war where they declassified ? Do you remember the seventies seventies . Right . So some 33 decades later . Yeah . So , and I know , I think that's a challenge that CMH is going through right now is trying to get more documents declassified . And I think it's important for people to know that so that they , um , you know , for transparency that these official , um , the official history can be written with all the information , which , which is a good lead into the next question , which is , you know , I've , I've seen , I've heard firsthand outside critics and cynics say that well , as an army historian , the work you do is solely focused on making the army look good . How do you respond to that ? And , and so as an army historian and and a professionally trained historian , I vehemently disagree with that statement . And I say that because the army history program is not a messaging machine , it's not meant just for outreach or to or to garner public support . I mean public affairs has missions like that and those are very impor in and of themselves . But the history program exists to capture our past warts and all and take an objective look at ourselves and learn from that past experience and use that experience to better inform our future problem solving efforts . I already talked about , you know , when you're making historical analogies , understanding similarities and differences to put it all in the right context , but people have to understand too that history does not give us an approved solution to today's problems . What it does give us is the ability to think critically , to analyze , to evaluate and ask the right questions of our past and the challenges we encounter in the present and that helps us inform our decision making and make viable solutions to today's challenge is now in terms of army historians writing history to make everybody every unit look good . You know , that people kind of take that to to an extreme . But history is a vehicle used to inspire soldiers that serve in the army today , when they when the soldiers , the 101st Airborne Division look at what their division accomplished in Normandy during Operation Overlord soldiers take pride in being a part of that unit and there's nothing wrong with that . As long as those achievements are , are positive and real . Yeah . And and I would say as a historian that was in theater , uh , you know , you realize that , you know , that the documents and that the interviews maybe slanted towards the positive , you know , that , uh , you may not , uh , you know , have , you know , the commanding general or the somebody in the j staff is not going to say , you know , we're having difficulties . They're , you know , they're gonna , or they're , you know , they're saying we're failing or whatever that is . And so I think as a historian , you also need to sit sit back . You need to get , you know , some contrarian views you need to collect , you know , the , the information warts and all because , you know , you're really not going to be criticized here . You're just gathering the information and and and making and then it's gonna be interpreted by somebody else . But you've got to get it warts and all . Because if you don't , it just becomes like you're saying what the cynics would say , which is , you know , that it's just , you know , history that you want to present . So , you know , for those listening here who think that , you know , you know , we have great deal of information , You know , that's uh , that the historians can use , that will definitely , uh , you know , could not necessarily paint a perfect picture of what what happened in , you know , Afghanistan or Iraq or whatever . So we're not , we're trying to get the history as Best as it is warts and all I'd say right , we want to paint an accurate picture of , of what happened and get those lessons from them . And I think a great example of that is something that we went through here with the center military history a few years ago , during the 50th anniversary of the my Lai massacre . Um , there were , there were people , you know , within the army that thought , Hey , this is great . This is a great um , example to show here's something really bad that took place . Um let's examine that warts and all , but let's also talk about what we learned from that . How did the army change based on that . Um , but I know there are some people that said , you know , we shouldn't talk about this and and and very proud of the army history community for saying , yeah , we have to talk about this and , and uh , and I think that that overcame the critics , it demonstrates our capacity to be a learning institution to learn and grow from that experience , even if it is negative . So if people are interested in becoming part of the army historical program , how can they do that ? So soldiers with an abiding interest in or a genuine passion for , for history can access resources like our our CMH website history dot army dot mil . They can enroll in educational courses like uh the a 6 to 5 field unit historian distance learning course that I instruct . Uh It's designed to prepare personnel to work as command and unit historians . Uh By the fall of 2023 unit historical officers will have their own unit historical officer fundamentals , distance learning course that they can take on blackboard on demand to learn the essential skills , they'll need to perform their duties at brigade and battalion levels . There's also , I think a program out there , the army history additional skill identifier . So what is that ? And what are the requirements to achieve that ? So army skill identify of five x ray is the historian skill identify . So commissioned officers who already have either a Master of arts or a PhD in from an accredited university or college are eligible for the identify rare . Those who do not possess an advanced degree in history can still earn the A . S . I . By completing the A . 6 to 5 distance learning course , which is itself worth 5.3 credit hours while also amassing a minimum total of 18 credit hours in history courses . Either undergraduate or graduate credits count in that total . And I'd also add that for the warrant officer and enlisted population , there is an equivalent skill , identify their hotel , six bravo , which is a project development skill , identify where that has the same criteria as five extra . How does this help a soldier officer's career ? This opens some doors for them right by having that skill identify are on their O . R . B . There officer record brief or enlisted brief uh when they're evaluated for possible assignments at places like the center of military history or to work in a military history detachment or serve as a command historian . Maybe among some of our individual mobilization augment ease that are helping the divisions right now that don't have historians assigned . Um that having that skill identify their uh makes you put you in the running , put you in that pool of qualified people who could serve in the positions . Now , if I'm if I'm an officer out there and um I'm interested in history and I studied history in college and I but I want to take it a little bit further . Does the army offer opportunities educational opportunities for me to become a doctor like both of you . Absolutely . And of course , you know , there's there's the army advanced civil schooling program whereby if if a soldier is interested in uh teaching at West Point , for example , your commissioned officer , maybe you have a bachelor's in history and you want to go to graduate school . The army will send you two years fully funded on its dime to earn your masters degree so that you can go teach at at the U . S . Military Academy . I mean it's a fantastic opportunity and even now the army has expanded their graduate schooling opportunities right the grad . So program where soldiers agree to serve additional you years in service in exchange for going to graduate school . So there's , there's several avenues there to do that . And did either of you have that experience ? Absolutely . I'm a product of that . Is that how you see your doctor ? It is , it is about the same , same thing . So , so both of you on active duty were sent for a couple of years and that's how you got your doctorate program . Absolutely . That's fascinating . I mean , and I hope people , hopefully after hearing this , if they didn't know that , that they know that's a great opportunity and that and wow , very good . Um , gee , I should have looked into that dr Reynolds . No . Oh , well , I've missed out . Well , great . Well , hey , this has been a fantastic discussion and I think very important . I think it's something that um , people in the , in the military need to know , um , unit commanders especially need to know about this and why it's important , um , at all levels of command , but also for the civilian world to understand what we have here . And if if , um , you know , all the history that has been collected , like things that dr Kirkland did out in the field , that that is available for people to , to use for , for their projects . Uh , even if they're scholars , right , academics , they can use that journalists are using it all the time . And then historians , did I miss anything . Is there anything else you got you all want to add before we close this out . Looks like we hit it . All . All right . But we're not done . You can't get away that easy . We still have our hula trivia . So this is a segment that I like to , to have each of you give me a piece of significant army trivia that that will hopefully wow the audience . So is there something um , let's say ? Uh , absolutely . So if rob doesn't mind , I'll go first . Uh , so the documentation of military history begins with the confrontation between the ancient city state of sumer , which is current day Iraq and Ilam , which is current day Iran circa 2700 Bc near the modern day city of basra Iraq . So even in today's operations , we never seem to get very far away from the roots of the military history genre . Oh , that's amazing , wow . Okay . Um , and good information there . So army history goes back to 2700 Bc . Fantastic . Alright . Dr Kirkland , you're up . Alright , well , if you look at all the documents that have been collected by historians since 9 11 . Army historians , historians of all Elks are probably , you know , joint historians , army historians , all the , it would amount to over 250 terabytes of information . And if you printed out each of those documents on paper , it would circle the globe two times . Wow . That's a lot of reading holy cow . And who's reading all that ? Not me . Not me one person that to you , historians . I'll stick with public affairs . Thank you very much . But and and and how many of those terabytes did you collect ? I think maybe about one or two . Well , great , well , thanks so much . It's been a really , really fascinating discussion and I think helpful to everybody that's out there has any interest in history or or learning more about their own organizations within the army . And as you mentioned several times , Dr knight improving morale and esprit decor . It's great to know about your own units . So thank you dr knight and dr Kirkland for your wonderful insights today about the role of army historians and the importance of using army history at unit levels . And if anyone wants to learn more about the army history program or learn more about army history in general , then I encourage you to explore our website at history dot army dot mil . And if you want to experience army history every day , then visit our social media sites on facebook twitter and instagram . Thanks for joining us today on the United States Army history and heritage podcast for the center of military history , I'm lee Reynolds and until next time we're history . The views expressed in this podcast reflect those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views policies or opinions of the U . S . Army or Department of Defense . For more information about the army's proud history and heritage . Go to history dot army dot mil mm hmm .