How did African americans contribute to the army from its founding until today . What were the struggles of race relations in the army and how has it changed over time ? Who are some of the most influential and notable african americans and african american units that demonstrated army values for answers to these questions and more army history insights . Stay tuned . Welcome to the U . S . Army history and Heritage podcast . The official podcast of the United States Army Center of Military History . The center of Military History , writes and publishes the army's official history , manages the US Army Museum enterprise and provides historical support throughout the U . S . Army . Hello everyone and welcome to the United States Army history and Heritage podcast . I'm lee Reynolds , the strategic communications officer for the Center of Military History . In this episode we're examining the role of african americans in army history . And joining me for this discussion is Dr Isaac W . Hampton . Thank you Isaac for being here today . Thank you for having me . It's a pleasure to be here . Great , so let's give a little uh information on his background . So Dr Isaac W . Hampton the second is the command historian at the army Material Command at Redstone arsenal in Huntsville Alabama . Dr Hampton is originally from Urbana Ohio and he is an army veteran . Hampton earned his PhD in the 20th and 20th century U . S . History from the University of Houston ? Where his research focused on the condition of the african american officers experience concerning unfair promotion , systemic racism and the influence of the black power movement on african americans serving in uniform during the Vietnam era . He received his master's degree in history from texas Southern University And his bachelor's degree from Urbana University . He is the author of the book , the Black Officer Corps history of black military advancement from integration through Vietnam . And that book was published in 2012 . Well again , uh thanks um Isaac for being here and that's a that's an impressive list of qualifications . Thank you sir . A lot of uh it's kind of a passion of mine to , to delve into the history of african americans from a social military standpoint . Social cultural military standpoint . So yes , Right . Absolutely . So let's just jump into the conversation here . Um so we're just gonna kind of do an overview , We're gonna hit different eras of army history and the role of african americans during those eras . And and we'll get into some of the key points here later . But let's just start , let's look back all the way to the Revolutionary War . So what was the role of african americans ? And how did it , how did it change from the revolution through the civil war ? Well , lee when we look at the period of the Revolutionary War , you have to keep in mind that during the time of the american revolution , that the status of slaves , people had been institutionalized and we see that we have a racial caste system based on people with african ancestry . So by the numbers in around 17 70 you had 4 to 62,000 , People of African descent in the colonies . And we see that around 30,000 would actually be free African Americans in the college . That's about 5% of the total African American population . But when we look at the military component , we see that once the war is underway , that slaves would escape to British lines , protection by the loyals . And we see that there were more african americans who sided with the british than with the american patriots . Now let me let me give a little quick background all that . So we see that the colonial governor , lord Done more , issued a proclamation in 1775 who had promised freedom to the slaves if they were willing to fight for the British Army . And uh , so again , this is , this is not the immediate stance that we see from uh , the American side . So we'll see that this decree would , would basically find the motivation of enslaved Africans in the American colonies to escape to British lions . Now , if I can change gears quickly to the american side , we see them in . Now , african americans fought um , early on in the war next to the concord , you know , they were taking , you know , potshots at the british and they were , you know , informally part of these militias , but in november of 75 we see that uh , general George Washington issued an order barring black soldiers from the continent lobby . However , due to manpower constraints , uh , in the conditions of the war in 17 77 Congress will remove these restrictions . So , again , manpower becomes critical and I think that's a recurring theme that we're going to see throughout our army history . Yeah , absolutely , absolutely . So , um , you know , records indicate that even with these regulations in place , that Every , uh , future state , every , every colony , the 13 colonies would recruit blacks into its ranks . And this is , this is oddly what we see . Wow . And , and , uh , so that's , that's during the american revolution . And I think it was Rhode island regiment was , I think there were a lot of african americans who are serving there . Yes . Uh , so I've been now when we , when we get to the southern colonies , they have , uh , a lot more problems with having blacks in , in their militias , even if the government's going to pay them for them so long and short in the south , there are no african americans in those militias . Historical social indicator . However , these slave masters would loan out their blacks to be able to fight in the colonial army . Okay . In Washington's army , Why ? Because it get them out of that area . And there is this fear that there could be some type of slave uprising and on top of that , when you have a former slaves with , with guns , it tended to upset the social order of that time . Right ? And then for the british for those that did escape and go to the british lines . How were those , um , those men used in the british army . Okay . So we see that the slaves who escaped the British lawn there . So numbers are hovering right around 25,000 that served with the British . It could be more than that , but they were used as as nurses . They were used as teamsters . They were used as um , uh , to dig in bank . It's kind of like engineers to a degree , Uh , in support of the army . But also there were some approximately 5000 who served as soldiers and one of the more celebrated ones was the Ethiopian Brigade . So , um , there's uh , there's some literature on that . But again , this is uh , you know , we see that more blacks would fight on that side and they did for the , for the patriots . Um , and , and , and again , that was with the promise of getting their freedom . Yes . Okay . So now , once , once we get deeper into man , power struggles will see that . Let me switch to the american side that they would offer them land and a quote unquote starting bonus . So this is the money was right around close to $1000 the equivalent . Um , and the land could vary to 20 acres , 10 acres , but obviously freedom as well . Now for the british side , typically , hey , we're going to offer you freedom if you come and fight with us . And we see that after the war ends , we find that the british now , they have all these , these people that they promised freedom to , uh , they would wind up in place next year and the , on the Scotia and Brunswick across the west Indies , however many of them sadly would wind up being put back into slavery would wind up assemblies places . So it's , it's not , it's not always a happy story . But what about on the american side ? So were those , any of those promises kept ? Well on the american side ? Again , still mixed results . I would stay more , more positive and negative . But for these slaves that were loaned out from the south , we see these slave owners while they're keeping these monetary bonuses and would expect return of their slaves . Now , not all of them are going to return . Uh , we see that , that once that these uh slaves has served with these um , men in the north and thought , uh , we'd see the theory , there isn't a rush to turn them back to the south after they kind of distinguished themselves . So again , but it's still going to be mixed , mixed results when we see um , you know , it wasn't a blanket , the hell you thought you're going , you're going to be free , particularly if you were alone that from the south now moving forward from the Revolutionary War and still , you know , we have slavery legal in the United States . Um , but then what was the role , if any , um , in the army ? Um you know , post revel war up through the war of 18 12 and and really into this up to the beginning of the Civil war . Well , so for the post Revolutionary War period , the war to really talk about , it's going to be the war of 18 12 , kind of the second war with the uh with England . And really a crystallization point in african american military history as we see that the governor of Louisiana governor , William C . C . Claiborne , he would , he would actually appoint a man of color by the name of honore to the rank of lieutenant two years later , december 18 14 , we have another gentleman by the name of Vincent populist and joseph uh Savoy , both free men of color who were appointed to the rank of major for the battalions , again for the black battalion . So we don't , we're not , we're not leaving white soldiers , but these are gonna be black regiment . So these soldiers would go on to fight with General Andrew Jackson's about new Orleans in 18 15 and they fought with honor . So I would certainly that this is the beginning of the black officer corps in american military history . And and those units that were formed , those all black units . Where were they from ? Because I would think in , in the south um that would be a tough sell wouldn't it ? For for for black units with weapons in the south , it's all about emergency manpower when you look at african americans across history . Typically there's always an emergency source of manpower at this at this stage began now we're talking Louisiana as well . So they have a very unique relationship in history when it comes to uh , the social relationships with people of color . And keep in mind many of these people are gonna be of mixed ancestry . Some could , could , could obviously passed with a wink and a nod . But again , we see that in , in times of crisis , you don't care what color folks are if they're going to help you get to the instead of winning in a war . So again , this is , you see this played out time and time again . And the battle of New Orleans is a great case in point and then beyond the war of 18 12 into the 18 twenties thirties , forties . Um , did we see um , and you know , any expansion of the role of african americans in the , in the army . Now we see a closing of ranks in the army largely where there , there really aren't any a any african american serving um , in , in the regular army . Now the navy is a different case . I know we're talking about armies , but the navy , you always had um , deckhands and crewmen who would be of african american sense serving on these ships because again , that's , that's kind of unique job that not everybody wants to do . But we largely a closing of the ranks in the american military as we are heading towards civil war . And you have to remember , this is the backdrop of , of , of , of antebellum slavery . Uh , slavery is of all the land . It is illegal even to , to have , um , uh , people who are enslaved to learn how to read and write . And so now and , and we do during the period of the antebellum period , you have more free blacks living in the south than you do in the north . It's not exponential , but it's certainly bought by the thousands . I don't mean 50 or 60,000 , but I want to see those numbers around 2 , 22 to 70 kind of 50 50 in , in both both areas . And then as we then approached the civil war , I mean going into the civil war , um , how did the , um , the expansion or the use of african americans in the army change ? Well , so it's , so now at the , at the outset of the civil war officially , again , there's , there's no blacks in the , in the regular army now leading up to the civil war . You see these militias who would support the , the union kind of , you know , buddy Kansas and things like that . You do see blacks who will , who will unofficially fight and serve with their white counterparts . So again , but this is , this is nothing official . I really don't see uh , african americans officially serving in uniform until after General order number 1 43 which was issued by the war department in May of 18 63 . Now we do have the military adjustment act of 18 62 which made it legal for african americans to enlist in the army for the purpose of and let me be clear constructing and transmits performing camp services or any other labor . It can also serve in the Navy legally . But we don't see the the army of blacks really until after 18 63 . And that order really created the Bureau of Colored Troops , which designated african american regiments as United States colored troops . Or what do we say on their belt ? U S C . T . So this is so that's going to be the origin of really how we get black service members post 18 12 in the army . And and I think the authority for that was , I'm just guessing here , but was that the emancipation proclamation ? Absolutely . So after the emancipation Passed in 1863 , this is what really gives Lincoln that legislative legislative top cover of OK , I'm going to take it one step further . And again , it's another manpower consideration , but it's also to help destabilize uh , the the , the confederacy because remember the emancipation proclamation only free slaves in the rebellious state is not free slaves who are in the who are part of the union and we have a couple of the border border states um that that certainly uh still still practiced slavery . Yeah , and that that came as a result , I think of the battle of Antietam , I think Lincoln used that victory . He felt strong enough to then issue the emancipation proclamation . So so tell me about the formation of these . Now we have this order . Um , tell me about the formation of these these all black units or you know , or what was called the U . S . Colored troops . Yeah . So um , let me just refer back when we talk about , let's just go back to one of the folks probably know about it was the 54th . Um , and but one of the things is that yes , 54th massachusetts , thank you . We see that in order to remember that these black troops have all they have white officers . There are no black officers at this stage of the game . Now there will be in the civil war . And I know that uh , and and we know that that uh , particularly Louisiana is a called up because there is a black Malaysia that's there . But let me stay on the , on the northern side for a moment that um , it takes a special officers . They have to go to this special school in the east that tells them this is the management soldering of black troops . Okay . And so they have , they almost believe that it takes a certain mentality uh , that these leaders have to have these officers have to have in order to to manage the soldier troops of black descent . So but remember there's a lot of resistance of this because just think of all of the uh of the stereotypical or what's your priority ideas about the inferiority of black ? The fact that they're not intelligent enough . The fact they break under pressure , um their cowardly , they don't have the intelligence . So again , again , it's another experiment to where we see african americans having to really Uh work against all these sports to distinguish themselves in battle . Yeah . And um and but the 54th Massachusetts and and they really went on to distinguish themselves I think especially with the what the attack on Fort Wagner in South Carolina . Um Exactly . And there was a recipient from that battle as well . Yeah , it would have been Sergeant William H . Carney july 18 63 . Again , at the Battle of Fort Wagner . In our reference the great movie of Denzel Washington and morgan Freeman glory . It's been dated , but it's a great movie . But we when we talk about the number of U . S . Colored troops , we see that would be 100 75 regiments that would be constituted by 18 65 . And again that's about 1/10 of the manpower of the Union army . And we see that the U . S . Colored regiment are basically the precursor to the buffalo soldiers regiments that would fight in the in the old west . Um as as far as other people of of notes , let me let me share with I mentioned , um , uh , sergeant of kearney . But when you look at the african american performance during the Civil War , I think one of those reflection or the inflection point is going to be the battle at chapman spawn at the outskirts of Richmond Virginia . So when I was the branch chief historian , at least the Quartermaster Corps , I was able to go and see this area . But at that battle you had 14 14 african americans would receive the Medal of honor for actions that engagement . So , um , it's uh , it was incredible feat , but a lot of people So right did those actions um , change especially as we get to the end of the Civil war moving post civil war . Did that change anybody's views about how african americans could fight ? And did it influence new units being formed after the Civil war ? Well , the white press would , would celebrate and note these actions . So um while it it is a feel good story , you have to remember that that that that racism and african americans places being subservient in the United States is well entrenched . So as as you know , li I mean , you know , you talk about a second reconstruction by the time you get to the 19 sixties . So um , you know , obviously will have the 13th and 14th , 15th amendment , that will be the legislature , that that gives blacks their freedom and rights of citizenship . But again , um , minds are very slow to change when it comes to the condition of african americans . But we we did have so the U . S . Colored troops and continued on after uh the civil war . Um and then the formation of um what's called Buffalo soldiers , if you could address that , you know , who who were they , what did they do and how did they get that name ? Okay , so so This is the to understand that the backdrop . So 1866 , this is when Congress created six all black peacetime regiments later that would be consolidated to uh for which would be the 19 tens cap , 24th and 25th Infantry . And again this becomes the buffalo soldiers . But keep in mind this is the bad job of reconstruction of the south . And so while you had black troops participated in that war , hey , this is kind of a hard piece for the south and what you want to bring the country back together , they don't want a whole lot of black stories in the south . Okay , and I'm saying they weren't there . But the idea is that you see this when we talk about segregation , we see that they want these black troops away from the white population with the the majority of it . So this is where we see that these black soldiers are sent out west uh to settle the red West when we have these ending wars . Okay , so just to bring notes , if you , if you ever been in Fort Leavenworth , I'm pretty sure you have that , that monument , uh , the buffalo stories that was , that was initiated by general Colin Powell was dedicated 1919 92 . So the buffalo stories , when we talk about the name of how they got that , that um , identify , there's been a lot of stories out there about how they got it . It was , was it because their hair , their color of their skin ? Indians give it to them . Well , I would say most historians would , would , would probably agree just based on the sources that the native americans they gave his name to to blacks because of the tenacity of how they would fight . But it reminded them of , of the buffalo in the sense of the texture of their hair and the native americans . That was their quickest reference point in the sense that the buffaloes were very renowned in their culture , a sense of strength , a sense of vision and , and uh , you know , they weren't used to seeing these , these african americans fighting out there . So , um , but let me , let me just spell one more thing . So look , these african american . When we talk about the buffalo soldiers , these are frontier troops . And when you think about uh , the construction of these towns , protection of the male , the protection of , of these , of these ranches . Uh , keeping the native americans at bay from this american expansion . It's not the white cowboy truth . It's the buffalo soldiers . Okay . You don't , you really don't , But when you look at even the equipment , they have , the buffalo soldiers always had . The slowest horse is the worst equipment . And just the things that are frontline soldiers tip of the spirit today , they have the best of the best . But back then , uh , largely because who they were , they had the worst of the worst . Now they did have white officers . Uh , that would um , sold in their black Jack Pershing . Uh , you know , he spends time during the next in punitive expedition leading african american soldiers . But one of the key things is that you had a degree of white officers , a number one officer . He did not want to , so did not want to be associated with leading black soldiers . However , the caveat was , if you do this , it could be quicker promotion . So that's kind of the side of the other coin . Now , as far as someone to highlight , you know , don't let me get you far track . Talk about the soldiers . Let me highlight Kathie Williams , Cathy Williams who pretended to be a man or was able to hide her gender for over a year . So she could serve in the army . Now she was the first African African American female to listen to army and she's the only documented black woman to serve in the army in the 19th century . Okay . So she was able to hide her gender until she until she was sick and she , the doctor had to come and look out and do these exams and said , wait a minute , this is a woman . But um there's a book out there where she talks about , they have excerpts from interviews from her when she talks about she wore the uh the uh uniform and only two people knew about her gender and they tried to keep it quiet in the unit , but she was obviously discovered . So again , Cathy Williams , a very interesting care uh person in american military history who was worked with the buffalo soldiers . That's fascinating . Yeah , that's a that's a piece of information I didn't know about . So I'm gonna look more into that myself . Um And where did she fight ? So um or participate was she in the , in the westward expansion in the indian wars ? Yes , yes . She she served with the buffalo soldiers . So again she was out there on that on that frontier . We'll probably , you know , there isn't a whole lot of , A lot of rules being being being followed . So that's how she was able to , to keep that under undercover for so long a years , long time to get by with that . Yeah , that's that's pretty amazing . So you mentioned the 9th and 10th cavalry . Um and then um as we got closer to the the new century , we were engaged in the war with Spain or the Spanish American War . Um but didn't they participate also in CUba ? Yes . Um so we see that the first black regular army troops to mobilize for CUBA again um were again in the ninth and 10th calf , 24th and 24th infantry . And we we will see that they will be sent from the west where kind of with really more white folks around down to florida . Now florida was dogmatic in its vitriolic type of racist towards black people . And the fact that these men were down there in uniform . Uh , there's a um a a quote from the florida paper that that says something on the lines of , well , we don't care with negroes or in uniforms or not . It will not be treated any different than our civilian uh citizens , which was not very well . So um now let's talk about why we're , what , what was the urgency to bring these four black regiments online to go to CUBA ? Well , let's discuss that . One reason is going to be that the war department assumed that blacks possessed a natural immunity to the human climate and tropical diseases . So they think that we can turn them down there is uh embedded with our white troops . They can take the brunt of the , of the fighting because they have these immunities . You know that that's obviously not true , but we but we see that black troops would would have , they willingly went . There was an excitement about going down to CUBA and you can tie this to from the civil war , the revolutionary war to the do I'd say through the korean war is that african americans wanted to distinguish themselves on the battlefield so they could win respect for the race . They would hope to gain more civil , um more civil rights , political rights access . So these are some of the main drivers that was Yeah . And and I think that's mentioned this a little bit earlier , but that's a recurring theme here is um the african american units were called up sent out um at desperate times . Um and they distinguished themselves and the fact that they fought as hard as they could . Um despite how they're being treated back home . So I think that's that's a testament to who they were . Yeah . And and they're carrying , it's not fair . I told my daughter , hey , take their out of your vocabulary but we see that these officers are , are carrying the weight of representation for the whole whole race . Um there's a quote um , I read some time ago was from a black officer part of the a noise regimen . So obviously he's not a regular army unit but he told his men if we fail the whole race will shoulder the burden . And one thing , let me let me share this is that when you look at people of african american descent in and out of uniform if they have a platform where they're going to be out and be seen and have these responsibilities that that there's an old saying that that when when white folks come to work they go there to do a job . But when black people the platform come to work they go there with the responsibility and to carry it to carry this this type of of a burden is not , is not fair . But again it's the it's the optic that people tend to see and they tend to judge not not people individual individually . They intend to judge them as a usually that doesn't individually if they fail . Um Excuse me if they succeeded individual but if they fail it's for the group so they do really well it's always the exception . So I didn't want to go too far off that's the background . Um and then just to touch again on the spanish american war . So so these units they they serve in the war , they really distinguished themselves again . Um And you mentioned Black Jack Pershing earlier . So that that's uh who would later we would know as general john j Pershing but he was I think he was the leader . Um He commanded I think um I don't remember it was the ninth or 10th but he he was with them in uh in cuba I believe You know for sure obviously he goes into a punitive expedition after Pancho villa right . Yeah . So yeah he I know he was with them I I think in Spain but then 20 years later we have or 15 years later , um we have the punitive expedition . And so uh talk to us about that again . So , but between that Spanish American um war or the war with Spain and the punitive expedition , which I believe was in 1916 17 timeframe . Exactly . Yeah . Right . Right . Yes . The first time we use air power for recon actually , you don't count balloons of the civil war . Um , and let me close real quick with the spanish american war in that . Uh , a fascinating fact that we have six african americans who received the Medal of Honor . And um they were the , there were five buffalo soldiers from the 10th , 10th cab and sailing . And so again for reference , um there's a great documentary called The Crucible of Empire . Very good documentary kind of law . And the other book I recommended smoked yanks by Willard B gatewood . And um so getting into the Mexican expedition . Did was there any change in the , in the role of these african american units ? Um um and then how how did Pershing ? Who , who had a lot of experience with them in the past ? How did he use them in the Mexican expedition ? Yeah . Pershing had experience working with African americans when you look at the , at the literature , it was nothing out of the ordinary , largely because when when Pershing with injured Mexico with expedition last I think over a year he would send his , you know , his interpreters and they say , hey , you know , where's uh where's Pancho via tell where he's at . You know , and the response was the translation is he's over there someplace over them out . So again you have , you have one of the great mexican hero , Hey , they're not gonna help the americans get this guy . So yeah , so it was it was , it was an effort but that they weren't gonna catch . So then , you know , we were involved in in that punitive expedition as you said for about a year or so . Uh and then got World War One coming up . So I know Pershing is , is taken out of there and um sent overseas and starting to um to put together a force uh to go and fight in in France . Um so what was the role then of african americans in the uh in World War One ? So we see roughly roughly 400,000 , african americans had served during the Great War most known as World War One With right around 10,000 seeing battle . Now again , we see the vast majority of African American soldiers will be in support roles , stevedores , supply , uh teamsters , uh transportation , this sort of thing or they are not in in combat roles and you , they really are . Well , I'll get to that in a minute early on . There's there's really not a hardly any black officers . But I get to that in just a moment . But we would see that Pershing Uh , the big thing is that control the american forces would would be under four americans were not going to give our guys to the french . But Pershing does promise the french . He will give them some soldiers and the winds that he has to find a way to get these blacks off his hands . So what he does , he gives um regiments of the 93rd division to the french . Now stick with me the french who are colonial power at this time . They have experience working with people of African descent . They have treats in Senegal and so they have experienced employing black stories in combat . So you will see that particularly the 3 69 from Hell fighters , uh the stories of the 93rd , they would be equipped as french units and there were some challenges as far as adapting their assignments , mainly the language barrier . But these sources indicate the letters from the black soldiers show that they were treated as equals . Now , we'll see that the 3 69 the Harlem Hell fighters . This regiment was on the front line For a total of 191 days . That's five days longer than any other regiment of the American Expeditionary Force and Francis and the entire unit , the cord along with the other stem , well , it's closest . Almost 200 others received award for exceptional gallantry . But again , that that's the , the main backdrop , but if I can share one more thing . Um Another key point was we see the creation of the very first black officers school at Fort des Moines Iowa . So look at this stage of the game we're talking about you know black and list is one thing that we're gonna start talking about black officers . You know now leading up to this , you only have a few chaplains and um you know Colonel um Colonel Young who was a West Point graduate . And uh we see that this is another experiment because the the black leadership of the day from the N double A Cp and others they're clambering well look if we're gonna fight black should have should be led by people who look like them at least some of them . And so this leads to the creation of a school for black officers . So here we are , four de Moines Iowa , it's away from everything else and the candidates would go through about a three month , very rigorous program with technical and physical training . So in that first class and there were only two right around 638 officers are Created . Now the sad part is that when they would be mustered into the regular army , a lot of them didn't carry their officer commissions . They were they were degraded . Downgraded to um n . c . o . s . Okay so um we see that in June of 1918 . Uh the officers will be , I don't want to say reconvened and brought back together for transportation over to France . They can fight against the Germans . And um again , they'll be part of the 92nd Division Expeditionary Force . Um and they would see battle in France that the news are gone um again . So this is , they do fight there and fight with dignity . So now when we when we get into the post war or the interwar years from World War One , World War Two , now that we were starting to see black officers being trained , whether any changes leading up to the beginning of World War Two in how african americans served or , or lead units . Yes , in the sense that it was not good . So we see it in 1925 about seven years after the First World War , There's an Army War College study that takes place and evaluate the fitness or evaluated the fitness of black soldiers for service and future wars . And the study's recommendation . Uh , we're not good . It was generally dubious about the prospect of black soldiers . Some were successful in combat roles . So now keep in mind that this in 1925 , you can have hundreds and hundreds of officers will read this study and they become the future leaders , many of them who will take the take lead the army in the Second World War . So blacks are not only fighting against institutional racism and , and stereotypical beliefs of the day . Now they have a kind of uh a racist empirical data study from a unit that's been endorsed by them or endorses them of why blacks a lot of good soldiers . So again , this is another uphill battle that blacks were finally gets on the eve of the Second World War . But then as we launch into the Second World War , what was the state of , you know , um black officers and black units and um you know , what did they do ? How did they serve in the second world war ? Okay , so when we so we have to look at some of the legislature that was created . So we have executive order 8802 which was created in 1941 , which largely uh prohibited racial discrimination in the armed forces . And uh and so the Marine Corps said , we talked about the reason for a moment from their inception up to this moment , up to that moment , the marines were refused to recruit blacks and other minorities into their ranks until they had to uh in 1942 we had the monster Point um marines in 1942 . But we see that with this executive order where the creation of the Chairman seven 61st Tank Battalion , The Red Ball Express . These are all african american units that distinguish themselves now . Um as far as black officers , we we well obviously we have uh Bill Davis Sr and his son Bill Davis Jr who will be part of the army Air Corps and they go to the to the air force and becomes its own branch . But we will see that that black officers will will be created . There will be more than during this war . Um As far as basically like an O . C . S . Program . All right . So so there is a small expansion but again there um african american units served in support roles but really distinguished themselves . Um But after the war um between World War two and Korea , we had President Truman issued his executive order 9981 of desegregation . So can you talk a little bit about that ? Um What did it say ? How how was it implemented ? Okay . So um executive order 9981 . It's not nearly as clean cut drives people like to say it was there's a let me get some context . So Let's talk about the political side . First , we're going to see that in January of 48 uh which is going to be an election year , that Truman would have a biracial committee on civil rights which called for the changing of the racial caste system , basically , they want an easing of laws , more rights for blacks for access and all the things that are prompted by the constitution . So once Truman announces this , we see that particularly the south . Look by senator , excuse me , governor , strong thurman south Carolina he will create and he creates his own party known as the dixiecrat south Carolina Alabama Mississippi Louisiana . So again , during the election , he carries those states on the republican side , uh , governor of new york thomas dewey , uh , he winds up carrying 13 northern Midwest states . So by a plurality , Truman wins the election . But the black voting bloc carries the day for him . Now I want , I got one little sequence but let me get behind that . So now there are some international push factors and the international factors are this in february 48 a communist coup takes place where in Czechoslovakia today , martin Slovakia and Czech in the Czech Republic , I'm sure remember Czechoslovakia , my daughter doesn't on the map anymore . But uh , so with that we see that um , black leaders such as a for the Randolph the N double A Cp new york congressman Adam , Clayton Powell , they bring up the fact that blacks are unwilling to serve again in a jim Crow army . And what does uncle Sam do they reinstate the draft in March of 48 and blacks are , are , are large like a wait a minute . We're not gonna do this again . So June of 48 war is the likely the wars increased even greater . Why ? Because we have the uh , the Berlin blockade . So this is the first major crisis of the cold war . So this led to the Berlin airlift . Truth is going to be a war . He's in trouble as far as his elections . And so he caters to the black vote . And so when black say , Hey , we're gonna support you if you do X , which is integrate the military , Truman signed executive order on July 26 of 1948 . So again , that is the backdrop behind it . We get this black support which takes us up to the election and then what , how was it implemented ? So didn't mean all of a sudden we have integrated units . Yeah . So , okay , so the thing about this , I mean they want to interview through my research , several african americans were in the army back then and within the ranks , their leadership told them , hey guys , nothing's going to change . Don't worry , nothing's gonna change at all . You might actually be treated any different . So that that push factor is going to be the beginning of the korean war . And again , uh , executive order nine and 81 had been out there for more than two years , but it becomes a manpower needs of where we see that uh black regiments had been over um , not oversupplied , but their numbers , they're building numbers were above strength . So they were a natural man power flow to send over to south Korea to help stop that gap . So again , it always comes down to emergency man poison emergency manpower question . Again , lee , so that's where we're at . But I think that Big picture , it's political component , a manpower component and a civil rights component . Yeah , definitely . Because even though the order was issued in 48 I think um the at least on active duty side , the the army on paper at least was integrated I think by 1954 . So it took a while To get full implementation . Yeah , the reserve and guard , I don't think fully implemented . Um really until later I think the reserve was late 50s and the guard , I remember it wasn't until 1964-65 , but again then we're into Vietnam and so it becomes an issue there for for a need for manpower but also , you know , a lot of the units that the National Guard was slower to integrate when you consider a lot of the units , the National Guard units in the south I think just um push back on that , right ? And there's there's so much local politics involved . I mean heck black black black people a hard time even voting back then , you know , much less we're gonna let you in the military but but now as we move forward into integration , expanding the role of african americans , um you're starting to see a lot more um african americans as officers . So let's talk a little bit about um the importance of the role played by the historically black colleges and universities in creating the black officer corps . Absolutely . Um so hbcu historically black colleges universities uh you you have to a memorably that over 75% of the black officer corps will come from hbcu and when we're talking about the sixties . Well I mean where would where would they go unless you you know you could go to Ohio State . Um Probably about the U . C . L . A . Or someplace like that . But for the most part we see african americans Uh going to these historically by colleges for a couple of reasons . 1st . Um there are people there that look like them . They do not have that um that resistance uh that would take place at a traditional traditional white college when we look at um what took place at on old miss this sort of thing these integration issues . So remember I think the biggest thing to keep in mind that Hbcu have have and had a mission of developing african americans beyond the curriculum but also the content of the character . Because these are the young men and women who are going to go back and serve those communities . Now the transition of going from an all black environment uh to an all white environment was was challenging for the vast majority of black officers because again when they've been told well until this area they they see that they're told they're never good enough now they have to go And and and prove it . And when I've interviewed um through my black officers uh they talk about where we had to overwhelm our detractors with uh with competence and uh it's an uphill battle that they would face . But these H . B . C . U . S . Um again they play a critical role even today . Um As far as our R . O . T . C . Of Italians are concerned as far as creating the black officer court , not that that's not just the army but that's the navy and Air Force component as well . And then I don't want to rush it . But we're getting close on time here . But uh just can you just talk about race relations then from uh from Vietnam through today and what we're what are some of the continuing challenges and and themes ? So when you would as we get out of the sixties into the seventies into the eighties when you would ask african american officers , even the military just ask do we have integration ? Yes of course we do . We have integration . But there was not equal opportunity , it's not equal opportunity and without the ability for african american officers to to get regular army commissions . That the vast body of black . So reserve commissions . Well back then with the reserve commission , you weren't going to get selected uh for X . Type of leadership school or X . Type of service college , you you really would be put out in the middle , we had to retire from the military if you didn't make lieutenant colonel and you didn't see a lot of lieutenant colonels if they were black uh majors making lieutenant colonel . So uh the other thing that blacks had going against them was the fact that they had very few advocates remember the Black Officer Corps , it's never more than 5000 during the Vietnam War . And so people who can advocate for advocate for you , people who can open these doors , people who are going to be your raider . Uh , we don't see this uh , for for black officers . So they're often left behind or unfairly rated compared to their white counterparts . And if , uh , read my book in the black Officer Corps , the Butler study , um , clearly indicates that for the better part of from 1960 for 1973 black officers were rated 10 to 15 points lower than white officers with education and assignments being equal . So if it's not your education , uh , and it's not your job performance , what else could it be ? Yeah . And um , today , you know , when we look at things today , how um , uh , there there's a lot of talk about , you know , diversity inclusion , equity . What ? Just as a final comment on all this , how would you say we stand today ? Look , I would put it this way . There is still work to do , still work to do the world for diversity equality and inclusion project that is always under construction . Always under construction . But remember that talent is indiscriminate and excellence knows no color or gender . And look , we we have history , it tells us that we must be vigilant and proactive in ensuring that our army , our society recruits and brings in the best people from all ethnic and racial backgrounds because when , when , when , when you build up um a like the hbcu stronger black America , it makes a stronger collective America and that's good for everyone . All right , well , good . Well thank you Isaac so much . Um this has been a great discussion . Uh you know , I know it it deserves a lot more time , but it's been a really good overview of the role of african americans in army history . But before we close , we've got our our segment called Who would trivia . So do you have a piece of significant army trivia ? Uh , something that you know , you can wow the audience with , with some piece of army trivia about the role of African americans in army history . Yes , A piece of trivia um , is going to be that during World War two , during World War two , how many African americans received ? The Congressional Medal of Honor and how many was that ? That number was zero because it was understood but unspoken that no , african americans received the Medal of Honor , The nation's highest military award . Now , Post World War Two , we have the uh we're looking at these , these significant actions with my officers , about blacks who are deserving . But um this is what was happening . So it's a , it's a sad story , but um you know , we have to look at history , the way it was not the way we would like it to be . So that that's where we're at . I wish I could on a higher note . Yeah , No , but but but like you said there , there has been an effort on the part of the army and the military in general to go back and look at previous conflicts . I mean , even World War One , World War two Korea Vietnam . Uh a lot of these , these actions by african americans and other minorities are being re looked and a lot of these medals have been upgraded to medals of honor . So , absolutely , if I could just give me one more minute I can share a person's name , Amanda remember is William Henry johnson . William Henry johnson . There's a lot written about him , but this man had an amazing feat of bravery uh in 1918 , in the Argonne Forest . This man fought hand to hand with german suffering 21 wounds while rescuing a fellow soldier and he was finally awarded the Purple Heart in 96 . And in 2015 , President Barack Obama finally awarded him the Medal of honor . We highlight his story on our website and on our social media . So it's it is a fascinating story . Um Thanks for bringing up . Yeah , well , thank you Isaac for your insights today about the role of um african americans in army history and if anyone wants to learn more about the history of african americans in the army or learn more about army history in general , that I encourage you to explore our website at history dot army dot mil . And if you want to experience army history every day , then visit our social media sites on facebook twitter and instagram . Thanks for joining us today on the United States army history and heritage podcast for the center of Military history . I'm lee Reynolds and until next time we're history . The views expressed in this podcast reflect those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views policies or opinions of the U . S . Army or Department of Defense . For more information about the army's proud history and heritage , go to history dot army dot mil . Mhm .