How has Hollywood affected the attitudes and perceptions of americans towards the army historically . What role has the army played in the production of Hollywood films and tv shows for answers to these questions and more army history insights . Stay tuned . Welcome to the U . S . Army history and Heritage podcast . The official podcast of the United States Army Center of Military History . The Center of Military History , writes and publishes the army's official history , manages the US Army museum enterprise and provides historical support throughout the U . S . Army . Hello everyone and welcome to the United States Army history and Heritage podcast . I'm lee Reynolds , the strategic communications officer for the Center of Military History . You know , we are currently in the Hollywood Awards season so I thought it would be a good idea to take some time and use this episode to examine and discuss the historical relationship between Hollywood and the army . And joining me for this discussion is doctor Dave Hogan . Thank you Dave for being here . Thanks for having me . Great . So a little bit about Dave . He is a native of michigan . Uh He received his bachelor's degree from Dartmouth College in 1980 his PhD from Duke University in 1986 . After teaching at Elon College , he joined the U . S . Army Center of Military History in 1987 . He's the author of several books , a command post at war first Army headquarters in europe 1943 to 45 . He wrote Raiders or Elite Infantry . The changing role of the U . S . Army rangers from Dieppe to Grenada . He also wrote the book U . S . Army Special Operations in World War Two and finally centuries of service . The U . S . Army 17 75 to 2005 . And for 15 years he taught an honors seminar at the University of Maryland , College Park on american attitudes towards warfare and the military . And he also taught in Norwich University's online military history program . He is a former trustee of the Society for Military History and is currently working on a biography of general Omar general the Art of the Army Omar Bradley . That's a mouthful . That's a pretty long and impressive career . Dave . Uh am I missing anything here ? I think you've captured it pretty well . Okay , perfect . Um so now just for some clarification um about my own background because I'm gonna I'm gonna add to the discussion here . So I have worked in Hollywood in numerous capacities but specifically I have worked as a military technical advisor on many films , documentaries and tv shows , both in an official capacity for the U . S . Army but also as a civilian military technical advisor . Some of my credits include we were soldiers , the last Samurai , the good German national treasure and only the brave . Uh and that is a film about the 442nd Japanese American unit in World War II , not the more recent film called only the brave about oil rigs . Now the American public is clearly fascinated with military-related films 19 of the 90 for best picture . Oscars have gone to films with a military-related storyline . So about 20 This year , which is 2023 . 2 of the films nominated for best picture are also military stories . All quiet on the Western front and um uh top gun maverick . Yeah . What's interesting is all quiet on the Western front was the original one was the third film to ever win best picture . So it's uh yeah . And um so now dr Hogan your experience at the University of Maryland teaching about american attitudes toward warfare and the military has a lot to do with our topic today . So uh as part of that course that you taught you discuss the roles or the role of movies and tv in creating specific attitudes or impressions of the military . So let's discuss that first because I think that will help us to discuss with more clarity later on , the interesting relationship between the army and and Hollywood . So if you could just lead off and and talk a little bit about um you know , how movies and tv affect both positively and negatively the attitudes and perceptions of the army . Well , e um as you indicated , it's no secret that since the 18 nineties movies have been one of the most popular public media shaping perceptions on warfare in the military and it's not any big secret why that's the case they bring a sense of immediacy stimulate , there's all this stimulation with with the uh noise , the sites , what , what movies can bring spectacular combat scenes and of course violence we're talking about war movies seems to have a very electrical effect on its audience . But the , some of it with movies that and I think most americans are this way , uh , they movies are primarily entertainment there . Secondarily , sometimes their art rarely are they historical . And uh , there is , I think there is a general awareness in the american populace that a movie is a movie . It's only a movie . But there are a lot of people who do take movies as reality . And and the fact that movies create such lasting images in our minds . This and this raises some questions about the limitations of dramatic license and so on . So have movies affected , have movies affected attitudes and perceptions . No question and we can talk some more about that . But I would argue as well that movies reflect as much as they affect existing views . They reflect motifs that are already existed in society . The , well probably the most popular uh image that that brings into mind is the frontier myth . We've been making movies based on the frontier myth for Lord knows how long that's , that's been so central and american culture . The the factors of freedom , the idea of freedom , captivity , rescue , revenge , all the things that have been built into the , I've heard people describe Pearl Harbor as another indian war film , the sneak attack and then then the striking , that's basic storytelling . Yeah , yeah . And it's , and it's a format that's very well worn in the american experience . Uh , in some ways , when you ask the question about effect versus reflect views , it reminds me quite a bit of the debate over Vietnam and the media and the perennial , the chronic argument that the media lost Vietnam , They transmitted all these images to the public and the media and the public gave up on the war . And actually I think , and we've had historians at CMH have argued this , that that is way overdrawn that actually the media reflected public perceptions and more or less followed them as much as created them in uh , in the course of time . I think if you , if you look back to filmmaking began , um well let's say the Oscars right . So the first , the first picture to ever win an Academy award was wings , which was um , it was a romantic love story set upon army aviation in the first world war . And it and this , the making of this film had full support of the US Army . In fact it was filmed that was called kelly field in san Antonio texas . They used army aircraft . They use soldiers and a clarification for the audience to that at that time . The air force was part of the army . That was right . So it was an army army supported um film . But if you take , you know from from that film , through World War Two into the fifties , a lot of these , if not all of these films were very heroic , triumphant pro America , pro military . Then you get into the sixties And by 65 to 67 , that starts to change . And then you start seeing a lot more of these um anti war and you maybe call them anti american but anti military films . So there's that perception or the reflection . I think that's a really good discussion to have . You're absolutely right . There are some ups and downs going going through the history of films and the and the film and the and the attitudes towards the military and warfare . But There is a real sea change about the late 60s . Now you can look at the period in the interwar years before World War Two . There was the romantic period , the adventure period . There's always been movies that treat war as an adventure as there's always there where there's a romance involved . There was a period in the thirties when that backtracked a little bit . You start to see pacifist films like the original All Quiet on the western front which I still , I think is the best of its genre of all time . Well , it was , the book was written and the film was was produced as anti war films . Yes , it was and it was it's it's an amazing film . I mean , you look at , you look at all quiet on the western front now and the technology of the time , which they put it together . It was , it's , it's incredible how well they portrayed that and how effective it was . And it won a slew of Academy Awards at that at that particular point . But it , but it reflected that era of disenchantment of , uh , it was in the middle of the depression . Uh , there was a lot of disillusionment in american society in general with the ideals . Questions about whether american institutions were up to the challenge and that fed the kind of disenchantment that you saw in all quiet on the Western front . But american society recovered quickly at the end of the , as you start to get into the late thirties and the rise of fascism and the threat of fascism overseas . Um , even if american society was floundering somewhat in terms of , we don't know exactly who we are , where we stand , but we know what we're against and this is it . Yeah . So let's , let's talk , let's look back a little bit more of that . Well , first of all , um , can you cite any examples , let's say that have influenced , Uh , films from the 30s , 40s , maybe that influenced American public opinion and then maybe some films that , um , well influenced it in a positive way or some films that influenced in a negative way . Yeah , it's , I think when you talk about influence , that's a very hard thing to measure . I'm not aware of any studies that say where they go out and ask people how much of your decision to rejoin the army was the result of seeing the longest day something like that . But there's certainly impressionistic evidence . I remember when top gun originally came out back in 1986 and there were all these stories about boy , young young men are just racing to join the Navy and be fighter pilots . So a lot of that hard , it's , it's kind of hard to measure the recruitment impact . However , I do think we can point in the 1940 period to Sergent York , which I often used in my class to counter counterbalance against all quiet on the Western front . All quiet on the Western front didn't see any value in war . Very disenchanted with war . Sergeant york . Yes . There is a threat out there . Whatever Our personal misgivings about war pacifism . Sometimes there are things you have to fight for and that's , that was the message that came through largely and cloud and clear . And it came at a time when America was adjusting to the notion that they would have to fight another major war . Yeah , because sergeant york is a film of course . Um , uh , that took place in World War One . Yes , but it came out in the early years of World War Two . It came out in 1940 . Right , so , okay , so in the United States was not yet in the war , but , but you started to see that surge of preparedness particularly after the fall of France . And we were moving in that direction . And naturally american society was very divided at the time . So , um how has the army , like looking back to World War Two ? How has the army um helped or or um worked with Hollywood to influence public opinion ? Well , uh the Hollywood army relationship is very interesting . It's a classic case of both institutions . They each have something they very badly want from the other and they seek to boat to exploit that relationship and to benefit from it . And the services want an attractive portrayal of their institution . The army wants , wants to uh portray a positive picture of the army , positive picture of it as a career as as to draw young men into serving uh in wartime . They want they want that image to build support uh to for the war effort , filmmakers , especially the studios , they want military help , They want personnel , they want equipment , they want that are of authenticity that that military support can provide . Now , the army has been , I would argue a little less successful than the other services in terms of doing this . Perhaps because army themes don't necessarily play into play into this , like they do for the other services have the benefit of technology . Aviation technology was very new and very , very popular and charismatic during the interwar years between World War One and World War Two . So the Air Force Army Air Forces at the time had there had a leg up in terms of the publicity wings itself drew on the aviation craze and same thing with Top Gun , Top Gun Maverick . Uh the Navy benefits enormously from that , It's , it's hard to find a type image if you would that that that that the army can pick up on . Yeah , let's look at World War Two , because I think this is very unique in in in army history , in dealing with Hollywood . Um So here we are at war , you know , and uh the basically the army and and Hollywood worked together for many reasons and um uh the filmmaking in the in the army belonged to the Signal corps , but Hap Arnold , who you know , led the army Air forces at the time , He saw a need to also start a unit that could help him um train his , his um his soldiers , his airmen , um but also for recruitment , they needed pilots , they needed a lot of people . So uh they formed something that was called the First Hollywood movie unit . Yeah , the first motion motion picture , First Motion picture Unit , Arnold is one of the really interesting guys to look at in terms of the devolution of the service of the military and film , he had been , he had a long experience with the studios , He had filmed Military Scout in 1911 when he was a young pilot and he was very aware , he knew the , he knew the people , he knew the potential that that that film could use in terms of selling the Air Force . He's trying and he's trying remember , he's trying during this period to sell the Air Force as an independent service and he recognizes the power of film to do that . He collaborates , he gets together with Jack and Harry Warner of Warner Brothers and in March of 1942 he commissioned them to create this unit . And in july 1st 1942 the first motion picture became an active unit with Lieutenant Colonel Jack Warner as the commanding officer . Now Warner didn't stay for very long with the first motion picture unit . He had a job to do with his own studio and he went back to it . But yeah , originally it was in Warner Brothers studios and and then invite a graft studios in Hollywood and then they finally ended up at Hell Roach Studios which was known to the people in the unit as Fort Roach Roach City . Exactly . And they started with recruiting films . Um as you mentioned , they originally the idea was we need to train pilots . Then it was , we have to find some gunners , recruit some gunners . They developed training and then once that proved successful , they start to get into the business of training films to speed the learning process for Air force crews . This is where you get a lot of the animation , some folks , some folks , what was that ? Rudolph is saying that that later became involved with Looney tunes and merrie melodies . He was involved with a lot of these animation scripts . I think Mel blank blank also performed in these and there's a lot of the voiceover narration . Mel blank was uh was the voice of precision firing which was which was a movie for governor for gunners and hits . His character who ended up being very popular in the Air Force was trigger joe and trigger joe would teach you about about gunnery training films , training films released to the public . They had character films like there was one on talking about the dynamics of flying which featured cartoon characters called thrust gravity and drag . But that wasn't all the first motion picture unit did . They also did special film project 152 which involved developing navigational and topographical films to support bombing campaigns . They would looked out , they would they would uh survey a potential target like Tokyo with an overhead camera use film to try to uh they could use this film then to uh to educate pilots and bombardiers . There was also a special project 1 86 which surveyed bomb damage and that particularly at the effect as american forces moved into Germany toward the end of the war . They could they could take a lot of film that . That survey , just how effective the bombing was . And that in turn played to the strategic bombing survey that the Air force commissioned soon afterwards . Um very , very successful . Even even Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel Hitler's leading military advisor remark later and how good the americans were with flight with film training , How they , how they had developed , how they develop that to such a fine level . Because this unit also helped train the combat cameramen of the day as well , which is part of the signal . And um , because people don't , don't , don't realize that a lot of the army films or government films that we have from that era that are all stored at the National Archives and are free for public use and viewing . Um , but that was filmed by the Signal corps . Yes , yeah . That this , some of these movies that they put together for the bomb damage survey at the end of the war . Some folks call it the longest unseen movie history cost about $1 million dollars to put together . And this unit was , it was unique because it was made up of all professionals from the entertainment industry . It was definitely unique , unique society . The uh , the folks that joined up largely professionals from the film industry . The unit bypassed normal recruiting channels . They were able to do that because film duty was deemed so essential to the war effort . Well , you talked about mel blank Jack Warner . I think they also had a very famous director john Huston that did a lot of these films . Any other names that we might recognize today ? Oh Lord ! Well , Clark gable narrated wings up and combat America after his stint and gone with the Wind William Holden , who later became a very famous , acted a lot of war films over time for different studios . He did reconnaissance pilot wings up and lightening the Lockheed P 38 story for , for uh , for first motion picture unit . Fellow Van Heflin did land and live in the jungle . He also did land and live in the desert . So he went from one climate to another before he made Shane . Alan ladd did a photo intelligence and bombardment aviation . You mentioned Mel blank and the voice of trigger joe . One person I didn't realize was in there that you know the fellow who played bones McCoy in Star trek deforest Kelley did a time to kill . And there were some famous directors to , you mentioned john Huston but also there's john Sturgis was later director of gunfight at the Ok corral and Magnificent seven and the Great Escape , which is right up there on my list of great warm anybody else ? Well , there was this fellow uh , let me see Ronald Reagan . Yes Ronald Reagan , I think I've heard of him think you heard of him ? I think he started right . He started as a lieutenant and then I think eventually captain . Yes , he started as a reserve cavalry cavalrymen . Um and that goes back , he had been a long time reservist . He joined up with the Army Reserve in Des Moines Iowa I think that's when he was doing those baseball broadcasting baseball games at in de Moines served in the army for a long time as a reservist . Yeah but he was the units , he was the first motion picture unit personnel officer and later the Adjutant . And it's ironic because Reagan didn't really like to fly at least at that . He had bounced around in a plane flying to Catalina back in the thirties . And and uh he made a couple of those um outside of this unit . He um um war films that were pretty good actually . Yeah he did rear gunner with burgess MEREDITH and that was that was a recruiting film to advertise for gunners . They were recruiting gunners and once they got done with pilots uh they recruited gunners for the for the for the Air Force . But he did Lord he did he did a lot of different films for for them . But Jimmy Stewart I believe also Jimmy Stewart did the original one . winning your wings , John Huston directed and Jimmy Stewart . He was perfect for that role . Now he was one of the most , he was probably the Air Force's favorite actor of all time but he served in the Air Force outside of that unit as well . Think he eventually made general . Yeah I think he was a one star general . Yeah so he he became very did very well . He did he worked in this , Winning your wings . It was the first actually Warner Brothers did that for a contract before this was the first thing that Warner Brothers did for the Air Force . And while they were still in the process of forming the unit And Arnold credited that movie with delivering 100,000 recruits for for pilots . So and but again , we're already at war and these these films are designed to help with recruitment , help train uh military personnel , but also help I think with morale within the military , but also the American public , they were they played a role in terms of putting people in touch with the with the fighting men . Probably the most famous of the first Motion Picture Units films that I can recall is Memphis belle , the story of a Flying fortress that William Wyler directed and that that made the national film registry . That was that , I mean , you know , movies good when they make a sequel , which they did back in what was at the eighties or nineties when they did so great . And that that told a great story about a bomber crew that was trying to make it through its last mission so it could go home and uh yes . Uh so there are others resisting enemy interrogation won an Academy award and the Last Bomb was nominated nominated for Best documentary . It's interesting that these films were also submitted for Academy Awards for documentaries primarily for documentary . It's true . But so they made some morale films . They made some a lot of training films . You go down the list . So many of those films that we were talking about with these actors were training films outside of the first motion picture unit . There were other Hollywood um people that were involved in filmmaking for the war effort , frank Capra comes to mind . Yes , Hollywood played a big role in the war effort and they were a priority . President Roosevelt said early , he said it's important for the film industry to help keep up morale , maintain national morale , inform and entertain the citizenry . And so films provided a form of escape from obviously from all the chaos and and heartbreak . But while at the same time attempting to build unity behind the war effort . So with World War Two more than I think any time before or since you had film enlisted to support the war effort . And because you didn't really see um anti war films coming out of Hollywood in those days , there was no questioning this is what we were all in uh even the cartoon characters served that were so from Disney , Disney had a whole series of um , I don't know what you want to call , not not necessarily pro war , but but films , Bugs Bunny sold war bonds , animated films um helping with the war effort . Yes , Donald Duck , push saving . Yeah . Right . So push savings to support the war effort . You mentioned frank Capra the why We Fight was one of the real that was a series of five documentaries , but why , I think , oh yeah , I think it came up to seven . There were seven , but , but his first one , which was Prelude to war that won an Academy award also . Yes , The best documentary . Yes . For best documentary . Yeah . I think uh , there were seven episodes and they earned a lot of praise . Of course , Capra , as you mentioned , was a filmmaker of some stature . Yeah , yeah , yeah . He had already won Academy Awards . So , and Why We Fight has since frequently been praised . It's often moving . I remember years ago seen the one on the Nazi strike , which was the second one I believe . And , and uh , yeah , they really knew how to use Beethoven's Seventh Symphony in conjunction with all these pictures of french refugees . Um , and just how beastly the enemy was . And uh , they were praised and the army wanted to release them theatrically , which the Hollywood was kind of , we don't want the competition from the army . Um , but the reaction to the why We Fight wasn't university universally positive . A lot of people found the episodes strident with a lot of cliches slogans and heroic posturing . Some of them were very dubious uh , in terms of their historical background , The battle for china and the battle for Russia have some real groaners in there for those who , well , these have been called propaganda films . And so as we know with the term propaganda , it's to influence an audience to , to have a certain point of view point of view or emotional reaction . Right . Exactly . So , um , yeah , not , I'm not coming to his defense on , on that , but I'm just , just to clarify that was the point of the films , but this is , but this is , this is the thing , It's just , it's kind of a fine line . This was his job after all . And it becomes , and it's the movies that we tend to remember from World War Two , Most of them really , we just don't think that much about , um , the early films like baton and Wake Island , we really , the filmmakers didn't have that much to go on in terms of what was happening . And some of them look kind of ridiculous frankly . Um , they're very , they're very racist in terms of how they portrayed the japanese as uh , animals , instant insects . It's , it's not , uh , and they made the battlefront seem hardly more deadly than a football game . But then again , during this timeframe we've mentioned before , but their heroic american , it's pro war because its freedom against fascism . And then you have somebody like john wayne Who , you know , I heard somebody say John Wayne won World War II . But the reason being is he was the films that he was in , it was the messages that he did , some films I know he did back to Bataan , but Wayne , yeah , the sands of Iwo Jima that becomes of course that comes out in 49 . So it belongs more to the post war . But but you're right , I mean you look at these these movies , they're out to portray the G . I . S as regular guys . Uh , the phrase homely hero comes to mind units are melting pot . You've got the irish guy from Brooklyn , the texas , sharecropper . Um the strange thing is when they bring in african americans or asians into the performance and then they then they portray an integrated army at a time when the army was not integrated . So they're also trying to remold views and enemies you never in in film and generally in photography in general , you never showed american soldiers fighting with british , You never you never showed racial tensions within the army and you portrayed the army . The soviet union became this courageous democratic ally . Forget the purges , forget stalinism . The uh Britain is idealized in a very sentimental way . White cliffs of dover and all that and china becomes a modernized country of all these , all these peasants just yearning to be truly democratic and free and opposing the brutal nazis and the treacherous japanese it was . And sometimes I think with a lot of these films , they just they hit very hard other films like Casablanca has been regarded as something that was more subtle . It's a very effective movement . Yes , but but the propaganda , it's there but it's not not so in your face as it is in some of these some of these other later Hollywood got better . They made more realistic and movie movies like the story of G . I joe which was based on Ernie Pyle . Well but were I think the ones you're talking about and correct me if I'm wrong on this one , but the more realistic ones were done . I think post war yeah , they didn't have to have that propaganda effect . Now it's more like looking back and honoring the veterans honoring the service of um you know um the soldiers and and the reason why we fought again . Yeah . And that that's obviously when you're not in that wartime environment and but but even in the post war , once the Cold War gets going , there's still that war time , let's transition to that real quick because um you know , Hollywood and the army were all in working side by side together to create these for films using equipment locations . Um Even what we call stock footage , getting the Signal corps films from the actual front lines and using them in the films now . You know , we're Postwar getting into the Cold War . Um How how do things change ? Well the fifties in early and six , most of the sixties are the golden age for military movies . Uh because Hollywood and and the military had very similar priorities . There was there was a lot of cooperation . The army for much of this period is in a battle for survival , frankly they're in they're in a struggle to preserve themselves in the budget against the Air force which is the carriers of the nuclear of the atomic bomb nuclear bombs and uh and of the navy air force , the navy get tend to get the most of the press and the army is struggling to maintain a profile . They're looking for benefits from recruitment to prestige to support for a higher budget . And they worked and they benefited to some degree during this period from the fact that there are so many veterans in the in the movie industry at this point , who knows something about the army ? Uh That doesn't mean that necessarily that we have a totally positive view of military life . They have been around the army that they still had a little bit of that G I joe mentality about officers . But really through the fifties into I would say mid sixties 65 at least . It's still more of a um a positive view and a positive relationship because you still had the the army military in general , but the army specifically still supporting the making a lot of these well and the and the things that do come up or tend to be relatively minor . The army doesn't , the army doesn't like it when when the movies portray officers being treating enlisted men badly . It doesn't yet . I think a prime example was from here to eternity , which is I think is one of the greatest army movies all the time . But it's based on a it's based on James jones novel . James jones served in the army and it's it's hardly a uniformly positive view of the army . The sergeant sergeant played by Burt Burt Lancaster has an affair with the wife of the commanding officer who who is kind of a jerk . But the army had to work through a lot of negotiations . There were a lot of negotiations , a lot of compromises before from here to eternity could emerge and there anything that put officers in a poor light . There was concern about the portrayal of G . I . S going overseas . Uh The army was hypersensitive to the slightest slur against women's Army corps , although generally are generally Hollywood was pretty favorable about the Women's Army corps . That usually wasn't a problem , but occasionally it was rare that the pentagon flatly refused to provide assistance . I don't know if you know that movie attack that I think came out in 1956 or so , which shows a enlisted man shooting as officer . The army was never going to support that , that type of movie . Yes . So filmmakers , they have to make that decision . Yes , we could go to the military and ask them for support and the military even then would have to review the script , they reviewed the script , they made suggestions . Uh that would be back and forth over the suggestions . Some were more major than others , some were pretty small . And if the script got approval then then the army could arrange access to bases , base facilities , um arrange for soldier extras review . Uh And the completed film would be screened at the office of the Chief of information and often with high ranking invitees . And if you pass that test boy that could unlock all kinds of things for you as a as a studio , you you would you'd get promotions through the army's vast public relations apparatus and through the International Armed Forces network , which was a very bit which was a very big deal . So this this often could make the difference between the success or failure of a film . Yeah . So now um as we get through the sixties into the seventies we're starting to see a change in the films that are coming out . Um anti war and yeah , not so pro american , it there's a change in the sense that you could see Tougher portrayals of officers and end of the institution in the early in the 50s and 60s . But it was more it was more along the lines of just , you know , this is kind of the culture and this is what you go through to be a man and be a tough guy , a lot of that sort of thing . But but that relationship between the army and Hollywood um as more of these anti war , anti military films were being made , the army wasn't supporting those . So there was a little bit of , of of a break in that relationship changes . That changes enormously . Some of the movies that come out later , It begins in the early sixties , when you had to have the growing concern over nuclear warfare , early sixties , a dr strangelove and fail safe . Don't specifically aren't specifically on the army , but that's that's the kind of question . They don't get any support from the military . Know , that's there's this questioning of american general questioning of american institutions . And that's , that's a case where the questioning is the movies reflect that and affect that affect that both . But , uh , Vietnam turns into an unpopular war , uh , that upsets the traditional pictures , the military and the military tourism From some of the skeptics , skeptical wisecracks about about the institution and officers in the 50s and 60s , you go into something more sinister , something that you , the military comes off as careerist , clueless and robotic . Uh , you have much more negative portrayals of , of the army leadership , uh , suspicion of civilian and military leaders . It's an outgrowth of the era and that's when you start to get um , the , the kind of Vietnam movies on the one hand , platoon , um , casualties of war apocalypse now and then the reaction type movie of that , whereas you had the Green Berets , which was kind of a follow on from the late sixties , you go from there to Rambo , but now patent . So Patton , right , 1970 right in the heart of that time where it's anti war films , um , that had the support of the military , didn't it ? Patton is an interesting movie and there's this fellow Nick Serota Keys that wrote a great book on that . Um , you can look at Pat in a number of different ways and uh frank McCarthy , who was the producer for Patton was a former aide to general George , marshall chief of staff of the Army , World War Two . So he had contacts and he could he could work those to make patent happen . And there are some who look at patent and figure that's really an anti war film for the period . The movie was based on two books . One of them was by Omar Bradley , A soldier's story , right ? And I understand that Bradley was actually military adviser . Yes , yes . And if Bradley was a military advisor , you could be sure it wasn't going to be anti army . However , the Bradley relationship , Bradley , I think tried to be as fair as he could patent , but but he was he was not a patent fan . And that comes off in different ways . And then what's interesting is that same year , I think also up for best picture , but Patent one was Mash and Mash is a classic Vietnam . It's it's set in the korean war . It's it's a medical unit in the korean war obviously . But , but the themes the portrayal of the military in so many different ways reflects the Vietnam era . And then and the producers made it as an anti Vietnam war film moving forward . You've mentioned some of the ones in in in the eighties . You know , the heart of the Cold War , the military is being a lot more selective now . Um The army is very selective for a time in the in the late seventies eighties when these Vietnam movies start coming out and they are very sensitive . I think it's a period when the military is under fire not getting a lot of support from from uh from the army . Um But then this movie called Top Gun came out . Oh yeah , and I still remember that and I think you mentioned earlier what that did for the navy , what that did for recruitment . Um And I think even the recent one , Top Gun Maverick has had an impact . Um But I remember when that came out and and working army public affairs for as long as I have and working with the Entertainment Office in Hollywood . Um You know , we've always said the army needs our Top Gun . But then um somebody responded to that some producers , they came out with a movie called Firebirds . That's when you stopped , that's when you stopped pushing for a new challenge wasn't good and we'll talk about that a little bit more later . But um yeah , so so the military has been a lot more selective on what they're going to . Um , they're wiser . I think they , and they come out of it wiser . I think they benefit from the resurgence of support in the eighties and you start getting some more positive films like , like Top Gun , but , but there are others . Part of it is you start to get into the world war two nostalgia saving private Ryan . That's , that's generally a fairly positive movie about the army . Um , let's see A bridge too far came out in the late seventies , but that , that , that carries sort of carries over the heritage of some of the old World War Two classics . Um , and uh , well actually in a movie you were working on , we were soldiers , which you can take that verse vis a vis platoon or which in terms of how Vietnam is viewed . Um , but a lot of the movies lately too , there's still the sense of , uh , individuals caught in the chaos of , of a wartime situation where the support , the , the implication of support from the higher levels and from society at large doesn't always seem to be there . You get these , how do I put it somewhat anarchic films like three kings . Remember three kings with George Clooney , The Desert Storm , I think . Yeah . And Black Black Hawk Down of course , which influenced a lot of viewers and more recently . Hurt locker . Right . Picture again . Um , so let's before we move on . Um , I want to talk a little bit about um , for veterans going into a movie theater and , and , and watching a film . Um , before I got involved with Hollywood , I had a hard time watching a lot of these , these films because especially more recent ones and maybe in the last 30 years they were , they just so poorly represented the military haircuts weren't correct , uniforms were incorrect . Um , I mean the way they were talking was just , we didn't talk that way , you know , so it was hard to go and I didn't for a lot of time . Um , I didn't go and watch an , an army film or a tv show because it was just so so bad and poorly representative . Um , But I think Hollywood in the last at least 20 years or so has been trying to make a difference in that now . Well , well , well you've been involved with that quite a bit in terms of , you talked about , we were soldiers who talked some of the other movies that you were involved in in terms of more recently trying to get that right . And , and I think um saving private Ryan had a lot to do with Hollywood trying to get it right because um , you know , a gentleman named dale die , people will recognize him if they don't recognize his name . And he's been in a lot of films , but he created um , a unit of veterans , um , that filmmakers could use and they would get it right . They would put actors through training , they would make sure wardrobe and props are all correct and they would be on set to to make sure those things are right . And um And then since then it was uh you know I worked on we were soldiers . We filmed that in in the winter spring of 2001 . And the good thing is you have filmmakers who want to get it right . Um in fact they wouldn't uh general more um would not have allowed Hollywood to make that film unless they had the right filmmakers doing it . And and they matched up with Randall Wallace who wrote and directed the film and uh they hired well hell more was on set almost all the time . So he was you know it's like having uh yeah sometimes yeah but um but a team of us of three people were brought in for our own specific areas of expertise . And then of course it had full support of the U . S . Army . So we filmed at Fort Benning . We filmed at Fort Hunter Liggett in California . But um we made it as accurate as we could . We put the actors through training . We made sure even background actors as many of them as possible were veterans . So they knew how to look like a soldier , how to act like a soldier and those who weren't veterans , the background actors , we trained them as well but that's just one example there's plenty movies I worked on and and other movies like Black Hawk Down which was actually filming the same time we were filming we were soldiers . They had their military tech advisors to And in Hollywood over the last 20 years . Um I think one of the benefits of being at war for 20 years you've got all these veterans and now there's several veterans organizations that filmmakers hire to bring in as technical advisors and historical advisors to help get it right . So they aren't as swimming in fantasy as the as Hollywood was in 1942 . Yeah but and there are some producers who still say you know um they'll hire the military technical advisers but they don't want anything to do with the army or D . O . D . Because they don't want the perception they claim of being controlled by D . O . D . And that's and that's fine . But D . O . D . Um has film offices that are available to filmmakers . It's a it's a it's a little dance that both sides are doing right . So they're still review scripts . So if a filmmaker wants to make a movie about the army um it's in their benefit uh to have access to the army that way they save money on locations they can shoot at real military bases . They get to use military hardware , aircraft tanks and all that . Uh That comes with that . They still have to pay the military for for the gas the ammunition and all that . The military benefits from a training opportunity as well . But then it also benefits from recruitment whenever an agreement is signed to , to film using , uh , with military support . It has to be sure that they're telling an accurate story . They're not portraying the military in a negative way unfairly . Um , and that it has recruitment benefit . I get the sense that both sides have developed a bit more sophistication in terms of how they've approached this over the years . And they , they're , they're better in terms of navigating around each other's sore points in terms of , in terms of each side getting what they want out of the arrangement . Yeah . Now there has been some criticism that , hey , is this legal , is , is this right ? But so far , you know , congress has mandated that the military army has public outreach . This is one form of that . Um , so , you know , let that debate go on . But , um , but these film officers do exist . And you don't necessarily , you can still use the army for research and not have to have an agreement , You know , um , but we can still provide research . It just , you just can't use , um , unless you sign a contract , uh , and have a script approval by the military . Um , you can't use , uh , you know , the tanks and aircraft and all that kind of stuff . Um , but um , the military still provides his support support and inaccuracy , that kind of thing . Yeah , Well , and , and the thing is too , with , we were soldiers . And I remember when that came out Vietnam vets were delighted because it actually showed them fighting a worthy enemy in a , in a , in a very , in a tough battle that in some ways we evoked World War Two type clashes . But general moore wanted it that way to his credit . You know , him and joe Galloway , you know , they were both in the set the whole pretty much the whole time . Um , so that , yeah , that was all very good . And I would say about 80% of the movie was accurate . There's a few things that they agreed upon . General General moore agreed with the filmmakers that , okay , you know , I get it , you know , poetic or dramatic license was , was taken and you're going to have that . And I think that's the point that I do want to get across to the audience is sometimes when you go and see these films , um , sometimes some things it's a compromise . Um , but as long as , you know , they're saluting correctly , they have the right haircut . So we're in the right uniforms , they look like soldiers that , that then that makes me happy . But you know , we're getting , we're getting short on time . So I want to jump into our , our segment called who a trivia . So today I think it would be kind of fun if , um , we just talk about our five favorite and maybe least favorite uh war films and any for special mention . Do you , would you want to start ? Well , given my work on Bradley right now , I'm obviously , I really , I really loved the movie Patton , I could watch that however many times and George C scott delivers one of the most marvelous portrayals , acting portrayals . And uh , yeah , he , that was a really tricky thing he had to do because obviously the family was very sensitive , but they , but they liked the portrayal that he gave . And it's , it's really been one of the , I mentioned how it could have been viewed as an anti war film , but the amazing thing is the degree to which people have really grown on patent has become a bigger celebrity now since the movie than than he ever was before . Um , so I think we both agree that Patton was a great one . Um I also liked the longest day , which at the time it was made was an epic . And you can read about there were a lot of clashes there between between the producer and the army in terms of things that were portrayed . I think there was at one point where uh , he filmed american soldiers , like killing Germans trying to surrender and the army was very upset about that and he said he wouldn't delete it and they went back and forth on that for that . So , but uh , but the longest day generally , it's it's and it's very emblematic of its time in the sense of the way it portrays the Germans , uh , it's a post World War two film . So the Germans can come off as professional and it's really Hitler , that's messing , messing things around . Uh , we've talked a lot and I know at times about battleground . Oh yes . Uh , let's see , I guess ricardo mauled a man who was in that was a van Heflin . Yeah , it's about the Battle of the Bulge . Battle of the Bulge , correct . And I really , I thought that was better than the movie that's called Battle of the Bulge . More accurate . Yes , well , much more accurate . Although I have , I have some good things to say about the Battle of the bulge , some , uh , from here to eternity . I've always felt that was , that was Burt Lancaster is tremendous in that movie . And so is Montgomery clift . Um , and that was , even though the army did succeed in dumbing it down a bit , that's a , it's a real picture of the pre war army . It's , it's almost an artifact . My personal favorite Vietnam movie is go tell the Spartans , which doesn't , isn't as well known today , but in certain aspects , like the way it makes fun of the army's fixation on technology and uh , and the callow Lieutenant who ends up getting himself killed ? I don't want to say too much . Um , let's see , and did you want me to give you my worst story ? Let me see . So I think we agree . I think have patented longest day in mind . I also would , uh , of course we were soldiers . I just , I really do enjoy that . That might have made my list if it hadn't been for that . Help Mel Gibson charge at the end . That was , that was one of those things that , yeah , extra dramatic . I also add glory . Great , great film on , um , about civil war and the black soldiers . Uh , and , and the miniseries , Band of brothers , fantastic series . And I would give honorable mention to the movie stripes . I love stripes . I don't know what the army thought of it . I doubt the army gave it any help , but , but bill Murray is marvelous , marvelous in that . Uh , Gloria's Gloria's outstanding . I just kind of wish Matthew broderick . Uh , yeah , I'm so used to him as ferris . Bueller was hard to get hard to get over that . And then what's , what's your , um , give me a couple of , your least favorite and glorious bastards is so I could almost always make it through a movie , but I could not make it through that one . That was just terrible . I didn't realize that Hitler was killed during the war . So it just , it just got , it just was so surreal that it finally just got me gods and generals . That was a groaner . I just so many lost cause tropes and the acting and the script were terrible . Um , the patriot . I enjoy the patriot . I know it's not as historically accurate , but I enjoyed the film . Yeah , well , it's , it's funny how Mel Gibson has to have a charge at the end of every movie he makes , you know , he's making Braveheart over and over the picture of the picture of the revolution that emerges is just the whole thing about Tavington burning down the church . That's something from the eastern front in 1940 for uh , Gibson was out to get the brits and they , and they let him have it . Um , Green Berets versus platoon . I would , I would hit the green Berets harder because there , because it's just not a good movie , platoon . Stone is a very skilled filmmaker and my last one at least is dances with wolves , marvelous , marvelous cinematography . But the scenes of fifties , american family in a teepee talking about little daughter was too much for me . I would add to the list of my least favorite . Um , Pearl Harbor . Uh , that movie talked about nick cage Firebirds . Um , and then there's one called Home of the Brave , which was um , just focused on PTSD . But it was just , you would think coming out of watching that movie that every soldier um suffered from PTSD and had um discipline issues . So I just didn't , well , thanks so much dave for your insights today about the relationship between the army and Hollywood in army history and if anyone wants to learn more about the role of Hollywood in the army or learn more about army history in general and please explore our website at history dot army dot mil . And if you want to experience army history every day , then visit our social media sites on facebook twitter and instagram . Thanks for joining us today on the United States Army history and heritage podcast for the center of Military history . I'm lee Reynolds and until next time we're history . The views expressed in this podcast reflect those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views policies or opinions of the US Army or Department of Defense . For more information about the army's proud history and heritage , go to history dot army dot mil . Mhm .