did you know that the Lewis and Clark expedition was an army unit on a military mission . Captain Meriwether Lewis and Lieutenant William Clark And 29 of 33 of the members of their permanent party were all soldiers for more insights and discussion about the Lewis and Clark expedition . Stay tuned . Welcome to the U . S . Army history and Heritage podcast , the official podcast of the United States Army Center of Military History . The center of Military History , writes and publishes the army's official history , manages the US Army Museum enterprise and provides historical support throughout the U . S . Army . Hello everyone and welcome to the United States Army history and Heritage podcast . I'm lee Reynolds , the strategic communications officer for the Center of Military History . In this episode , we're going to examine the Lewis and Clark expedition and here to talk us through . It is historian Dr Glenn Williams . Welcome Glenn , good to be here , lee , good to see you . Good to see you again and I know I want to thank you . You've you've been leading us through a lot of these discussions in the early army history and so let's just talk a little bit about you as we get started here . So , Dr Glenn Williams is a retired infantry officer and airborne ranger . He is a published author on the colonial and Revolutionary War era and has extensive experience working in historical locations including as the historian and curator at the USS constellation in Baltimore Harbor with the National Park Service battlefield protection program and as assistant curator for the Baltimore Civil War Museum and President Street Station Dr . Williams has been a historian with the Center of Military History since 2004 . And I think something we should talk about is one of your first jobs when you came into CMH is working with the bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark expedition . That's right . I came to this job as the project officer and historian for the army , Lewis and Clark bicentennial commemoration uh in 2004 . Um It had already been begun , but then historian was promoted to a different job and I filled that position along with Lieutenant Colonel Mark Reardon . Alright , so great , great experience . And and you really uh the best subject matter expert for us to talk to about this army led expedition . So let's talk about the beginnings of this . I know it was thomas jefferson that contracted this . Um So how did it all come about ? Well , this followed the Louisiana purchase . Um Jefferson had arranged for the United States to purchase a large chunk of territory that had been caught been part of spain's colonies in north America during the Napoleonic wars . Uh Jefferson's vision was to have an empire that stretched all the way to the pacific and this was a step in doing that once the uh purchase had been made . He wanted to know what was in this vast area , what the vegetation and the animals , the people that inhabited it . We're like . And to try to find the Northwest passage to the pacific . the Northwest Passage . I hear about that all the time . And uh guys . Well we'll talk more about that later . But um let's talk about now . Um Why ? Merryweather Lewis ? Why was he selected ? Merryweather ? Lewis was a captain in the army . Um He served on the personal staff of the President Jefferson at the time . And um that's he was easy pick of course . Uh He had been a he was a veteran of the Battle of Typical New and he was asked by jefferson to put together a force to lead and execute a reconnaissance of the new territory . And uh as part of that reconnaissance , were there specific things that President jefferson said , these are our key elements that I want to know . You kind of alluded to some before . But anything else ? He really wanted to make contact with the peoples living there , The various nations and tribes of american indians to establish friendly relations with them if possible . Uh to study the flora and fauna of the area and bring back examples and any other what they would have called curiosities in those days . We would call artifacts today uh to give an idea of what was there . And um um Alright , so this team , how did um louis build the team to go ? Well first louis asked for permission to uh contact one of his old army buddies , uh mary uh William clark . The two served together in the old us legion were both at the battle of typical new uh specifically wanted him to go along . Unfortunately for clark , the only available commission at the time was as a lieutenant in the artillery . Uh Lewis was an infantry officer . They had both been infantry officers before , although nobody knew he was only a lieutenant because louis always treated him as a co captain soldiers all referred to him as captain . And then they had to recruit um the rest of the core of Western Discovery as it was called . And um but why Clark other than being a friend , someone he could trust ? Did he bring any special skills that louis needed ? Well , Clark was very expert in his knowledge of the Western frontier . He is the younger brother of George Rogers . Clark of the Revolutionary War fame . He was also a surveyor and mapmaker . And in fact he would be mapping uh the route as they went . He also knew celestial navigation , which became very important . If you have a compass , you might know what direction you're going . But without maps of the area , which there were none at the time , you have to make your own a surveyor and celestial navigation are very handy . But how effective was that ? I mean , I'm guessing he used the sexton in addition to the compass compass chains , uh to measure distance , surveyor's chains . Um He was so good at his job , that modern geographers will tell you that none of his calculations were more than a quarter mile off . We're talking 1804 , 1806 . That's that's incredible . I mean crossing the whole frontier most of the country and being that close , that's just wow . So Louis knew what he was doing in doing , don't don't get the idea that he's making one over 20,000 maps as he's going along . These are basically strip maps , but they have the correct readings of latitude longitude in degrees . And so he's making these along the way . All right . So now um the rest of the team , the rest of the team are going to be composed mostly of soldiers . They do hire some french boatman to get them as far as the ST louis area . But Lewis stops at several army posts along the way , like Fortnite sock . Um they recruit soldiers from the 1st and 2nd infantry regiments and the regiment of artillery . They also recruit some volunteers , the most famous of whom are the nine young men of Kentucky who engage only for the time of the expedition . The other soldiers are in the army for their normal enlistments . And the team comes together on the banks of the Mississippi in what's now Illinois at the camp River Dubois where they train and prepare and move off in 4000 1804 in 1804 and they started the expedition and then um those who are not army . How would you um described them contractors , I think the best described as contractors of the 34 members of the permanent party , not counting the baby that was born along the way . Um , the 29 our military members . Um , one is uh , William Clark's man servant or slave , um , slave with him . He did bring his slave and how was he treated ? His name was york . We know a lot about him and he was treated like any other member of the expedition . Even when they had to vote , he was , he had the right to vote in any decision they made . He carried an arm . He , he was armed with a rifle the whole time . It was very instrumental in a lot of things they did impressed the indians to it . It was a big guy . Uh , and then , um , the other civilians . Um , uh , George Sawyer who was a scout and did most of the interpreting with indian nations . He was really helpful because he also knew indian sign language . And then you had Carbonneau . Carbonneau was a french trader . Um , who had some knowledge of indian tribes , but more importantly , his wife with Chicago area who could speak Shoshone , e and a couple other indian languages . Uh , so she would be most helpful . In fact they knew they were gonna run into the Shoshone and it would be helpful to have her along as well . And those three were considered what we would call the Department of Army civilians these days . They were on the payroll of the war Department . Now , um you mentioned that President Jefferson wanted to reach out to the native americans . Uh the american indians I guess and um established good relations . How did they do ? That was something prepared in advance ? Yes , wherever they went , they were going to hold what are called councils . And as part of indian diplomacy is the exchange of gifts . And one of the gifts that the members of the expedition were provided were what were called peace medals , medallions that the indian leaders could wear . Especially struck by the U . S . Mint . In fact , the two government agencies involved in the expedition are of course the army and the U . S . Mint . That's pretty fascinating . Do we um Do you know , are these available as artifacts anywhere ? Today ? There are in some museums . Please don't ask me which ones as is an air rifle that the the expedition carried along with it , which also impressed the indians because they could fire multiple shots without reloading . All right . Um Alright , so now let's let's talk a little bit more about the the expedition . Um What were some of the challenges that they faced along the way ? Several challenges . One that they would go through the territory of several indian nations or tribes . They had to have a way of communicating with them . So that's why they have Chicago area ? Well , where where did they , you mentioned that she was married to one of them , but where did they actually meet her engage her when they reach the limit of navigation on the Missouri River , uh which now bismarck , north Dakota . Uh there's a mandan village there . She and Carbonneau lived there . Um She had , she was originally by nationality . She is a Shoshone indian , but in the various wars between indian nations , um she was captured in a raid in which most of the other folks she was with were killed . Uh She and I think one other woman were taken prisoner or captive um and taken back to Herodotus , a territory where she is eventually uh sold or somehow acquired by the man dance . And while with the man dance um she , she marries uh Carbonneau and because she has a connection to the Shoshone e um that's the main reason why they hire her husband so she can come along too . She's pregnant at the time by the way . Uh and she'll give birth during the expedition . Oh wow ! Alright . So then um how did the encounters with the Indian nations go along the way along the way , some of them went really well . The indians that they would encounter were peaceful and friendly . Some not so much . And that was one of the advantages to having Chicago way along because in indian culture , a war party would not be accompanied by a woman . So even though this expedition were armed men , uh they telegraphed their peaceful intention by having her along along the way . Um And during the course she may have helped translate on occasion , especially when they got to the West coast . And . Alright , so now let's talk about some of the challenges that they faced with the terrain . Um What was it easy going ? How challenging was it ? I mean they're on rivers , they're having to go across land , cross mountains . Talk about that . They go by water as far as they can and when they have to start going on land , they have to cross over the bitterroot Mountains and into the rockies . And that's going to be very tough . And they're carrying a lot of equipment with them . So they're gonna need horses . And this is where Chicago area really plays an important part because when they get into Shawnee territory , she encounters her long lost brother who is a Shoshone chief at the time . And they are able to establish instant rapport , friendly relations and are able to acquire horses from the Shoshone to make the trip uh as into the basin of the Columbia River much easier . And you know , I remember reading a book undaunted courage about the the Corps of Discovery , right , the Lewis and Clark expedition . And one of the things that fascinated me was their interaction or the , I don't know if it's quite discovery , but interaction with some of the animals um that they encountered . Do you have any ? Yeah , well that's one of the things that uh jefferson was very interested in doing . In fact they send back some live specimens . Uh prairie dogs , uh a couple of different kinds of birds that they send back to jefferson . Uh and um they find um of artifacts like the tusk of a mastodon . Uh and learn a lot of things about what was in that western area that might not have been known before . Yeah I remember an encounter or two um with with Grizzlies , kind of surprised , big encounter with a grizzly . In fact lewis has to fight him off with his s pontoon which is the pole arm . That was not only a weapon but also the symbol of authority for an officer in those days . That's amazing . Um Alright so they're they're on this journey , you know they're they're looking for the Northwest passage . How is that going ? Uh They never do find a northwest passage as they make their way over the mountains . They're able to get back in the water when they reach the reach the Columbia and continue the rest of the way to the pacific and they get to the pacific . So I they had two winters that they were gone right because they were they were gone from 804206 18 oh 4 18 06 . Talk about the first winter , first winter . It is when they get to the mandan area and they erected four wherever they stopped for more than a couple of days . They fortified and when they stayed a winter , they erected a fort . The fort in the mandate , an area they called Fort Mandan . They spend the winter there they continue across the continent . When they reached the pacific mhm . They established a post called Fort Clatsop and that's where they spend the second winter . They're able to make the trip back to the Mississippi without stopping again for the winter And Fort Clatsop . If I um if I remember right , that's , that's on the pacific ocean , very close to the ocean . In fact , they're able to send a detail of soldiers to the beach where they a salt making operation to boil sea salt from seawater because they had run out of salt by that time . And these days salt is not just a seasoning , but that's how you preserve meat . So when they would kill game , the only way to keep it is to salt it down . Yeah . So really their logistics was foraging . Their logistics is pretty much self contained the whole way . They also had a portable boat by the way that they could disassemble . Uh and I mentioned the air rifle and a couple other other things that were specifically taken by them . But other than that it's what they found along the way and they had to repair their uniforms as they were going to . So in the in the winter quarters um I imagine they spent their time , I guess we repairing uniforms , resting , map making anything else . Hunting hunting of course , establishing relations with the local indians , finding what information they could about the terrain and other people in the area and things like that before they made their preparations to return and throughout the whole expedition . Did they lose anybody ? Oh yeah . In fact that they started with seven more soldiers than finished actually eight . Um They had some discipline problems like any military units . So six of them were sent back in the command under the command of a corporal who was trustworthy . And he not only got them back to where they started , but he also carried some dispatches back to the president also . Uh Sergeant Floyd died on route . We think of appendicitis . So they had to elevate one of the other N . C . O . S . Uh Sergeant Ordway became the orderly sergeant or today what we would call the first Sergeant because it was run like a company . Uh And that's how they , those that reduce the number of the permanent party to 33 29 of whom were soldiers . And then so after the second winter they wanted to make their way back . Did they take the same route ? No , they didn't follow the same route . In fact the two captains lead separate parties , detachments that explored other parts of the region . Uh If you've been out to Montana , the area of pompey's pillar actually has a carving by the the name of one of the officers in it . Um They that's on the Yellowstone as a matter of fact . Uh And so then they rejoined reunited the party back together to continue on back as one body . Yeah that's that's really fascinating to me that they would have separated . I mean just concerning the you know the day that it was 1806 I guess at this point they separate and then they link back up at a certain point in time and continue and then then continue back . So when they get back , what was the reception like ? People thought it had been like if we saw somebody coming back from the moon they hadn't seen these guys for two years . Didn't know whether they're alive or dead except for the dispatches that corporal Worthington took back to thomas jefferson . Other than that they had no contact during those two years at all . Uh And so it was a surprise first that they were alive and second that they were still together and they returned back to an army garrison at Fort la Fontaine . It's just north of ST louis . And then eventually I got back to Washington D . C . And met with President Jefferson . The soldiers go back to their units . The volunteers are discharged and lewis and clark continue back to either Washington or Monticello one or the other to meet with Jefferson and present him with all the artifacts and examples of flora and fauna and other specimens that they had collected along the way . A lot of them are still on display at Monticello . If you go there ? Yes . I visited Monticello and I have seen some of those there . Um So let's talk about their reports to President Jefferson . What were the successes ? And what were the failures ? Well , the successes were that they encountered several indian nations , most of whom were friendly . Uh They had a couple of rough spots . In fact , they have to join one of the friendly indian tribes in helping to repel an attack by their enemies . Um None of the soldiers were killed fortunately . Um And of course delivering the specimens and everything else and to give a report on what's on the other side of the Mississippi all the way to the pacific , although it's a very narrow trail that they took uh to to get there . So , you know , some people think , well that was the Oregon trail . No , it wasn't . The Oregon trail comes a couple decades later . But they do go from the head of navigation in the mist of the Missouri all the way to the mouth of the Columbia . Uh And then so the failures . Um What part of their mission ? What couldn't they accomplish ? They could not accomplish finding the elusive Northwest Passage . That's probably the biggest because they didn't find it , did they just assume that there wasn't one or just that it wasn't on the route we found . This would spark a number of other expeditions that the army would lead into the new territory . Uh One of them led by Zebulon pike , who we talked about in the war of 18 12 , who led a similar expedition and in fact he gets captured by the spanish because of where he wandered in the area that was still A Spanish colony . But a number of other army expedition . Army led expeditions like Fremont later before the beginning of the civil war , uh and several others . Um and remember that West Point was just established in 1802 primarily as a school of engineering and artillery practice . So a lot of officers in the army had training and topographic engineering . So the perfect pick for people to explore the west . And we talked earlier a little bit about clark and his maps . So these maps that he used , how that he created should say , how long were they used ? Uh They were used by the first several expeditions that would follow . But as more exploration was conducted , wider areas are covered and so they're able to fit those into other maps to get more , Get a better understanding of the new Western territory . Right ? So , but his maps were really the basis for for traveling exploration for at least 20 more years . His maps are the first that we have of that area um Spanish might have had some for down further southwest , but up where the , where the expedition took place , there , there was nothing . And what's the lasting impact of the Lewis and Clark expedition uh that it establishes the army as not only uh a force for fighting wars and defending the frontier , um but also to contribute to the development of the United States through exploration through map making uh diplomacy with the indian nations . Uh And uh they might have run into british officials . They didn't , but they could have because the british had traders on the west coast of what's now the United States as well . So it was a diplomatic mission as well as a military mission . I think that's a significant point because when we do talk about army history and heritage , the army has contributed so much more to the United States than just fighting wars . And you know , this is one of it contributing to society in many ways . And and I think this is a great example of that and certainly part of the lasting impact . Right ? Well , of course , the army was imbued . It's a cohesive organization with good leadership , good training , high morale uh , that can undertake any mission . All right . And um , so now the rest of the story , uh , lewis and Clark . Um What happens after the expedition After the expedition , Clark returns to civilian life , He later became the territorial governor , luis will become a territorial governor eventually too die of mysterious causes . As governor of Mississippi , I believe . Um Several of the soldiers are still serving during the war of 18 12 1 enlisted men earns a commission and serves as a captain during the War of 18 12 . At least one , maybe two were at the Battle of New Orleans . Um a couple others become a congressman or senator's member and the enlisted men of the expedition . Um , Chicago area , her son , pompey . They called him pompey . His name is jean batiste . Um Clark or rather Lewis kind of takes an interest in him , becomes like a godfather to him . Uh , takes care of some of his needs as he's growing up . Um , uh , Clark emancipated york , his slave who goes into a freight hauling business , I believe . He actually got started with Clark's help . Uh , and uh , that kind of continues the story from there . That's pretty interesting . Yeah . And yeah , it's good to hear about clark and the emancipation and in new york . Yeah , Fantastic . And I think another lasting impact here is we , you know , part of army history now we know Fort Lewis and Lewis in Washington has named it for louis and there's a statute , both the Lewis I believe , but also the sergeant Ordway , the first sergeant , Oh , at Fort Lewis at Fort Lewis . And we always forget Lewis's labrador dog here named Seaman who went the whole way with the expedition . Oh , terrific . Oh , wow ! Uh , that's cool . Alright , so , uh , you know , the final part of these podcasts , I'd like to ask for a little bit of a who , a trivia or I guess still has a trivia in that era . So do you have anything to share with us about the Lewis and Clark expedition ? Yes , if nothing else . Um It's usually misrepresented with the way the characters are dressed . But we can the Lewis and Clark expedition . The Corps of Western Discovery , like you mentioned earlier , was an army unit on a military mission . One of my colleagues liked to say that it's the army's longest dismounted unopposed strategic reconnaissance in army history . Uh but they wore uniforms the whole time . Most of the time they wore their fatigue , we would call fatigue uniforms was basically the hunting , but whenever they had a council with the indians , they put on their regimental and paraded just like they would for any other dignitary or head of state . Uh And they maintain that discipline . Like I said , there were some court martials along the way the troublemakers were sent home . Um But it remained an army unit , 30 29 of the 33 members of the permanent party were soldiers and of the four civilians , three of them were on the war department's payroll . Great , well , thank you so much , that's that's a lot of information and I think it's fascinating learning more about uh Lewis and clark . So thank you , glenn for joining us again . And yeah , you're great insights and discussion on the army led Lewis and Clark expedition . Corps of Western Discovery . Thanks so much Glen appreciate you coming in again and if anyone wants to learn more about army history , I encourage you to explore our website at history dot army dot mil . And we do have a one pamphlet that's just specifically about the Corps of Discovery and the Lewis and Clark expedition . So you can find that at history dot army dot mil . And if you want to experience army history every day then visit our social media sites on facebook twitter and instagram and make sure you like and share them so that we can get more people excited about army history and join us every week on this podcast for more in depth discussions about army history as we cover topics from all areas of the US Army and if you love army history , you don't want to miss an episode . So thanks for joining us today on the United States Army history and heritage podcast for the center of military history . I'm lee Reynolds and until next time we're history . The views expressed in this podcast reflect those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views of policies or opinions of the U . S . Army or Department of Defense . For more information about the army's proud history and heritage . Go to history dot army dot mil