What was the state of readiness of the army in the interwar years between World War 1 and World War 2 ? How did the army mobilize and transform tactics and equipment to meet the new challenges ? How was the army affected in the attacks on Pearl Harbor ? And how did they respond in Hawaii and throughout Asia ? For answers to these questions and more Army History Insights . Stay tuned . Welcome to the US Army History and Heritage podcast , the official podcast of the United States Army Center of Military History . The Center of Military History writes and publishes the Army's official history , manages the US Army Museum Enterprise , and provides historical support throughout the US Army . Hello everyone and welcome to the United States Army History and Heritage podcast . I'm Lee Reynolds , the strategic communications officer for the Center of Military History . In this episode we're looking at the events that led to World War 2 and the state of readiness and training for the US Army during those interwar years through the attack on Pearl Harbor . Joining me for this discussion is Doctor Dave Hogan . Thank you , Dave , for being here . Well thanks for having me , always a pleasure . And so just a little bit about Doctor Hogan uh he is a native of Michigan and he received his bachelor's degree from Dartmouth College in 1980 and his PhD from Duke University in 1986 . After teaching at Elon College , he joined the US Army Center of Military History in 1987 . It's a long time ago . He's been here for an administration . So he is the author of several books , uh , first , uh , author of Command Post at War , the first Army headquarters in Europe from 1943 to 1945 . He wrote Raiders or Elite Infantry , the changing role of the US Army Rangers from Diep to Grenada . That sounds fascinating . That was my . 00 . He also wrote the book US Army Special Operations in World War II and finally Centuries of Service , the US Army from 1775 to 2005 and for 15 years he taught an honors seminar at the University of Maryland College Park on American attitudes towards warfare and the military , and he's also taught in the Norwich University's online military history program . He's a former trustee of the Society for Military History and is currently working on a biography of General of the Army Omar Bradley . So today that's a lot of World War 2 history there and and and some other things , but uh I think . As a subject matter expert on this topic , you're just the right guy . I look forward to speaking about it . All right , so there's so much information to talk about so it's it's how we , how are we gonna narrow it down to to some of the key points , um , but let's just get into the discussion . So you've got , you know , after World War One , those interwar years , just set up for us , how is the army transforming ? What lessons did it learned from World War One ? And how was it organized and what was the state of equipment and tactics for the army ? One of the most amazing things in American military history , Lee , is how uh the weak outmoded American army of the interwar years became the powerful conquering force of one World War II , along with the other services and allies , of course , but uh it's , it's really quite impressive because practically up to the eve of the war . Uh , this was not much of an army in terms of readiness . And part of that was in the interwar years . The United States faced probably about as minimal a threat as it's ever faced in its history . The Indian wars were over . There was the remote possibility of war with Japan , although that had receded somewhat after the Washington conference of 1921 , and there was possible trouble on the border with Mexico , which was still recovering from its revolution . But there was a general attitude in the country we're not gonna intervene in Europe again and that wasn't such a great idea and the focus was on defending the homeland on presumed operations on the North American continent and perhaps on the colonies there there of course was war plan orange and the event that we got in a war with Japan , uh . The army would fight to the fight in the Philippines , hold out in the Philippines , hunker down while the navy advanced west across the Pacific to relieve it and uh that was , that was the plan the Philippines Teddy Roosevelt used to refer to the Philippines as the Achilles heel of American strategy and uh as we get into this series , we'll find out precisely why . But but when you mentioned that plant orange , when was that created ? Uh , at its roots , uh , a little bit before , but , but World War One , but it's really developed in during the interwar years , so they saw the rising threat from Japan . Yeah , um , it's , it's , it's a pretty , uh , it's pretty well , uh . It was perhaps the biggest plan we had in our ear earliest well obviously because we had other color plans we had Plan red in case we went to war with Britain and Plan green in case we went to war with Mexico , but there were all these color plans that the army strategists were developing . uh , you talked about the lessons of World War One and the biggest lessons that the army drew focused on mobilization and adjusting to this industrial warfare of mass armies . The World War One mobilization had been very fragmented , very ad hoc , had not gone very well . Indeed , we had ended up using a lot of allied planes and artillery and equipment because we , we were so . Unable to manufacture them on our own . Uh , the National Defense Act of 1920 , or I should say it's somebody's out there who's gonna say it's really the amendment to the National Defense Act of 1916 , uh , tried to create a structure for mobilization in the future , establishing nine geographic areas in the continental United States , each with 6 divisions . And those 6 divisions in each core area would come from the 3 components of the army at that point . You have the regular army , there would be 1 division from the regular army , 2 National Guard divisions , and 3 from the reserve components . And it set the regular army at 17,700 officers , about 280,000 men is the maximum level . It charged the war department with mobilization planning and preparation , which was assigned to the Assistant Secretary of War and indeed during the rest of the 20s and 30s , the War Department is developing these mobilization plans . It's one of the big things that they're doing . But the actual size of the army comes out to much less . We settle , I think , around 17th among the world armies . And at that time we weren't in a draft , right ? This is still just all volunteer after World War I . Yes , this was an all volunteer army scattered in garrisons at posts across the continental United States . Uh , we did have some troops in Hawaii , uh , the Hawaii division . Uh , some troops in the Philippines as an American possession and uh in the wake of the boxer rebellion of the early 20th century , we had a garrison at tent in China still at this point in the , in the 20s or 30s . OK . But these guys are really scattered and when they were that scattered they could only train in battalions and companies doing things like small unit tactics and marching PT . Uh , marksmanship is still kind of a bit of a fetish in the interwar army . It's , uh , still very , very , uh , highly regarded . And there's uh but there's not a lot of money in the National Defense Act . It called for this force structure , but the army's only getting $300,000 300 million dollars per year , which is about half the cost of what the MDA force structure is going to be so . Um , enlisted men had very low pay , lived in rotting barracks , eating war surplus food and using war surplus clothing . Not surprisingly , there was , there were high desertion rates , gambling and prostitution , and even drinking despite prohibition uh during that period . Uh , the army does develop some equipment , the 105 millimeter howitzer . We get the grand rifle in the 1930s , development and motorization , but . There's not a lot of new equipment because so much of it is obsolete and the War Department says oh you have all this leftover equipment from World War One so we're relying on World War One stocks and when it comes time to modernize we cut modernization programs to protect personnel , uh , preserve personnel , especially officers this it's a pretty officer heavy army at this stage . And the War Department takes funds from R&D from research and development to postpone the purchase of new weapons and equipment , and when they do start to get new weapons , they standardize weapons designs to facilitate the procurement so they have a standard weapon and they they set these are the designs which hampers development of new uh new technology . Uh , there's a lack of essential motor transport , not enough modern tanks for battalion . um , infantry is still the primary branch . Uh , The army's thinking , although the army is thinking , even with the experience of World War One , it's not thinking so much in terms of trench warfare , but , but big unit maneuver warfare across North America . Oh wow . Um , combination of using a combination of infantry , horse cavalry , and artillery . Horse cavalry is still a big deal . And , and through when ? When was the horse cavalry kind of like , Well , right on into 1939 , 1940 , yeah , it , it , it shows amazing persistence and um . And there there is an emphasis on combined arms , the rifle , the machine gun , the mortar , uh , the tank , uh , and especially artillery . The army is very good during this period of developing the infantry artillery coordination , which of course will assisted enormously in World War 2 and the . The basic tactics under cover of the fire base you advance and dispersed in conspicuous groups using the terrain . Uh , the Army conducted a lot of map exercises . It couldn't conduct actual maneuvers of large size units , but it did conduct map map map exercises using American terrain , particularly the Susquehanna Valley and the Missouri Valley seemed to be very popular , you know , where you'd have these movements using open flanks , horse cavalry scouting and screening . Applying the principles of war , the principles of war is really big in this period , uh , concentration , offensive , surprise , security , all those things , uh , and a lot of emphasis on seizing the initiative , conducting main and secondary attacks and envelopments when you're talking about North America , you've got the spread out territory you have open flanks you can move around and conduct and conduct envelopments . And when they , you don't have open flanks you conduct frontal attacks in depth to achieve a penetration . Still , even with this what they called open warfare , um , it's still very in that sense it's more mobile than the trench warfare of World War One , but it's still uh . In a lot of ways very stuck in in in earlier periods map exercises in the Susquehanna Valley often drew in the Gettysburg campaign . Oh wow . So , um , there's a lot of emphasis on reserves on and on the schools organized reserves and professional military education . The staff schools though . Their purpose really is not to turn out military geniuses as generals but to develop a lot of very logical balanced clear thinking staff officers um their schools are often criticized for stifling creativity with what became known as the school solutions um there is an overstrength officer corps , uh , that spent a lot of those extra officers spend a lot of time in schools teaching ROTC is a key function . During this time , uh , working with the National Guard . And there really is , uh , when you look at the curriculum , minimal emphasis on tanks and planes , even though both have been introduced in World War One . It's generally of two . The culture of the army of the interwar years is very conservative , um . A lot of emphasis on the traditional values and the prejudices of the time that reflected the prejudices of society maybe even to a greater degree a lot of Darwinian racial attitudes and a fear that our that the good wasp stock was getting undermined by immigration and uh racial mixing . It's it was a very racially aware period . Yeah well we still had desegregation in the military and there were no women in the military at that point yeah right well there were army Nurse Corps but but um yeah and then there was a closer kinship with corporate America than there had been in past years because of World War One had taught the need for the army to work together with industry for mobilization . Beginning of what what Eisenhower would call the industrial military complex . Yes , yes , yeah , there's there's a lot of that shared views , uh . The army's getting to appreciate the expertise of corporate America managing large organizations . Uh , so previously before World War One , I think the army largely saw themselves as the as , as noble and noble servants of the country and capitalists were were uh money grubbers , but , uh , it , it's changing . You have carefully manicured orderly communities , uh , to enlist the men the the army was kind of a combination of a school and athletic club . An orphan's home and a boys' camp all rolled together . Athletics was a big deal . Troops took a lot of pride in their uniform and in their unit for sports . For officers , it was a men's club . Small enough it was small enough to know others , especially within your service branch . People called it a rich man's life on a small income , sometimes in exotic locations like Hawaii or the Philippines . And a broad array of social functions , dances , balls , house calls , dinners , parties , bridge . Uh , they ape the wealthier elites with polo and horseback riding . It's a very horsey army . Even the infantry gets into this cult of the horses . Um and uh one publication described an army officer of the 20s and 30s as a queer mix of a clergyman , a college professor , and a small boy plain Indian . Oh wow . Uh , but pay and promotions were stagnant , and many officers resigned to look for better opportunities in the plot private sector . The others plotted on saying , oh . Yeah , we're we're doing this for the service of the country somehow uh there is a cultural emphasis on loyalty with a lot of single issue constituencies and we mentioned the cult of the horse , uh , horse cavalry . In hindered innovation right well into the 1930s you have the power of branch chiefs like the chief of cavalry who saw mechanization as a threat when they and they actually come up with this scheme of OK we'll use , we'll use trucks and trailers to haul the horses around to where we want them and then we'll use the horses so in 1939 and some . You have an army that's Just 190,000 men , 4 under strength square divisions , the old square division of World War 11 small cavalry division spread out across 130 posts in the continental United States . There's also a half strength division in Hawaii and a Philippine division of 3500 men . So this is , uh , this is an army that's in 1939 it's not really ready for anything went beyond it's just kind of a model for expansion . So it's and then by 1939 , we already saw Japanese aggression going on in in China and throughout some areas of the Pacific , um . You had the threats , the looming war in Europe that people could see coming um so what based on those world events , how how did army leadership start to change and and better prepare for um what what what many thought was you know getting involved in the war . One thing when I talk about technology in the army adapting I I should mention for one thing , uh . One area where that American culture was interested in was aviation . The army viewed the plane as a vehicle for reconnaissance and fire support starting in the 1920s and that's been in its role during World War One . Um , and Billy Mitchell conducted those bomb tests in 1921 and 1923 . Mitchell was a . Probably the most outspoken , certainly the most outspoken , maybe the most prominent American air officer of that generation . And he conducted bomb tests on obsolete naval vessels , some German battleships left over from World War One , to demonstrate the effectiveness of , of , uh , of airplanes as a for continental protection and we no longer just need the navy . In fact , the Air Force could be better , and he was very outspoken about the possibilities to the of aviation to the point of that he got court martialed for insubordination in 1926 . But at that time you have to recall that the aircraft was still not that advanced , um , and by and large the army still viewed it as . Like I said , a reconnaissance device , uh , combat against hostile aircraft , maybe a little bit of bombing here and there . The National Defense Act did create the Air Service and in 1926 that later became an equal combat arm , the Army Air Corps . Increasingly focuses on strategic bombing as a principal mission and indeed becomes a parochial interest of the Air Corps . The Air Force really starts to develop this notion of using unescorted high altitude . Uh Bombers able to defend themselves on daylight precision strikes against industries . So this was developed even before the war . This , this the concept , yes , yeah , through the 1930s , uh , heavy bomber formations that could defend themselves and long range missions to the target . B-17 comes out during this period and that seems to offer the right technology . They call it the flying fortress for a reason . It's got all these anti all these weapons poking out of it and capacity to drop bombs . But the Air Force doesn't give a lot of attention to close air support , which meant that air ground coordination we have to develop during the war . All right , so this brings us really up to September 1939 , so we have war breaking out in Europe , as I mentioned , we've already got conflict going on in Asia , um , so with all this happening , what's , uh , what was the army doing ? It's a tough period for the army . Because um part of it was the Great Depression which uh made Americans very inward . They weren't they were more isolationist than ever and uh there was a lot of suspicion that the British had dragged us into World War One with their propaganda and suspicion that the munitions makers had helped them so they could make more money from the war . And uh anti-mili this is probably a period of greater anti-militarism in the United States and often been in the past to the point that officers in Washington wore civilian clothing in public . Oh wow , yeah , you see pictures of George Marshall during this period . He's , he's going around in mufti . Uh , So it was a challenge , right ? The the whole isolationist movement was , was a challenge to overcome , but people like Marshall , they , they knew we've got to do something . Yes , well , he , he gets he gets involved , but there is some . There is some development in the late 30s . The army starts getting some , some more money , mostly for the Air Corps , uh and for coastal defenses and it uses it to , it's able to bring up enlisted man levels to , to greater strength and raise some pay , do some things , some larger field maneuvers . You've got the protective mobilization plan which calls for the induction of 400,000 National Guard to protect the country while we mobilize a full army , so they're playing around with this in the late 30s , but . But uh of course the urgency increases in September 39 when President Roosevelt declares a limited national emergency and uh the army starts to take some small steps . The army wants to raise itself to its full 280,000 man level . FDR only raises it to 227,000 and raises the National Guard to 235,000 . He permits more reserve officers to go on active duty . There's some funds to expand motorization . The army could now gather enough troops to create a real field army headquarters . You know , you'd only had the corps areas before and headquarters staffs were mere skeletons . In the spring of 1940 , you have the first genuine Corps and Army maneuvers in American military history . They revised , they start revising the field manuals . But um , Still , still , Lee , there's just a lot of complacency . Yeah , I mean , there's , there's still even . Even the army figures and it and says that the western hemisphere is not under threat , OK , right , but that's there's not no intrinsic reason there's strong countries opposing the fascist countries , uh , in both those areas and it's not necessarily follow that we we will have to get involved . And there's a lot of faith among the populace in general as there's been throughout American history and the invincible citizen in arms taking presumably taking his rifle from his fire hearth and and jumping into the and an American industrial capacity to overwhelm , uh , isolationists , communists , Roosevelt haters thought Roosevelt was gonna find a way of dragging the United States into the war , so they , so they're suspicious of that . How did that affect the 1940 presidential election ? Well , it's certainly there , although it's more muted because Wilkie actually supports a lot of Roosevelt's steps , Wendell Wilkie on , um , I mean there's certainly there's isolationist sentiment , but . But uh . It's , it's more , it's more muted . And and what about the draft ? When was that brought back ? Well , we get , get into that with the fall , um . Initially , Franklin Roosevelt , his main response was getting more aircraft , more ships for the navy , um . And Marshall was very cautious within the limits set by the White House and part of it because of the army's own outlook . The army is still thinking in more limited terms , not in terms of a global war defending the home , yeah , but Marshall does warn if Europe blazes , the US must put its house in order before sparks reach the Western Hemisphere and then in the spring of 1940 Europe blazed . We were unprepared . Suddenly it was like this is where the change really comes May June 1940 . We are unprepared . The the French army which had so much respect , collapsed before the German blitzkrieg , the planes and tanks of lightning war . And the assumptions that had guided American policy for 150 years that we had these two oceans that protected us , uh , we don't have to worry about the eastern hemisphere . Uh , came into question the fall of France . Now theoretically the Germans could invade into French northwest Africa and they'd only be about 1600 miles from Brazil . Oh , all these new theories that you know the long range bombers can now reach the United States from bases and . It changed , it starts to change our whole thinking about security , you know , that we no longer can hide behind the British Navy and the two oceans . And um this leads to the greatest peacetime mobilization in US history . FDR calls for a billion more in defense spending , 50,000 planes per year , a two ocean navy , everybody's , you know , that just hits everybody . And the army receives $8 billion between 1940 and 1941 . Roosevelt brings in a new Secretary of War , the 72-year-old Republican Henry Stimson , well former Secretary of State and Secretary of War , well known for his prestige and his integrity . Uh , in July 1940 , the War Department activated general headquarters to supervise organization and training . This is the precursor of the organization that's gonna build up and train the army during World War II and the rise of Lieutenant General Leslie J . McNair . Of course , the post that we are at is named after him . We're recording here at Center of Military History at Fort McNair in DC . August 1940 , Congress calls up , proves the call up of 18 National Guard divisions , although it limits their use to the Western Hemisphere . In September 1940 , and this wasn't even something the administration , the army were pushing , but a new preparedness movement says we've got to get a selective Service Act going and they pushed that through Congress and all males 21 to 35 have to register . Uh , the army dusts off its industrial mobilization plans for the 30s , expands the capacity for military production . By immediate orders and the creation of a new industrial facilities . It starts a crash program to construct training camps , shortages , even though with shortages of lumber and clothing . I , uh , trouble is , as we get into it , 1941 and mobilization is growing , but uh we're getting Getting deeper into it , a lot of the army's needs conflict with the imperative that the Roosevelt administration feels for aid to Britain , and later aid to the Soviet Union after Hitler invades the Soviet Union in June of 41 . Uh , the army's like we need this , this equipment for ourselves and under pressure , Marshall declares several weapon stocks obsolete so that they could then be sold to a middle man who would sell them to the British . Uh , Roosevelt decreed that the United States share half of its bomber production with the British , even though that would impact pilot training . Meanwhile , the victory program establishes that we need 8 million men and 215 divisions estimates we're gonna need that to defeat the Axis at that at that time they were assuming that Russia would not not survive . We were rushing a program in schools to get more officers into the field , developing the officer's candidate school that turned out hundreds of officer candidates like an assembly line , the 90 day wonders they were called , and in the summer and fall of 1941 , we had our first large maneuvers , Army Army level maneuvers in Louis Louisiana and Carolina , Carolinas . Yet still the great debate is intensifying , there's still most Americans , they don't want to get involved . Even , even as the United States expands its defense perimeter , um , uh , conducts an undeclared naval war against the Germans . The conscription bill comes up for renewal in August of 41 , and it only passes Congress by one vote . Wow . Um , there's still a prohibition against sending selectees outside the Western Hemisphere , and , uh . The pace and the pace of rearmament mobilization , if anything , toward the late 41 seems to be slowing as there's a sense of , well , maybe if we get involved , we'll just need to use the navy , the Air Force , and our industry and rely on other allies and There's a lot of sentiment still this hope that we could avoid an immediate shutdown and then of course along came Pearl Harbor . Well , now you said that the , the , the act prevented us from sending people outside the Western Hemisphere , but we had troops in the Philippines , yes , right ? I think that those are regular troops , oh , I got you . OK , so there there's a distinction there although we . Do later start to send , I think they get a waiver of some kind that they start to send some National Guard troops , some some other troops there . So just prior to Pearl Harbor , let's say by the end of November , how was the army arrayed uh around the world ? Well , at the time in in 1941 by fall of 1941 , the army had 27 infantry divisions , five armored divisions , two cavalry divisions . But only 4 , but that was largely on paper . Only 4 of those divisions and maybe an armored corps figured to be ready within 6 months . The vast majority of the army was still in the continental United States . We had expanded our perimeter a little bit to protect the western hemisphere . Some folks in the Caribbean , the Panama Canal , and uh . And of course , the Philippines , which was an American possession in Hawaii . And then um . We had other islands out there . There was Wake um were we in Guam then or was that something we got after we had oh we we had Guam but it was only a token American force , not not much of an American force there the Philippines and the Hawaii had the most troops . And then but I think midway , so that was pretty much the extent of the US forces , army forces out there . OK . And but nothing in Europe , right ? We weren't had no presence there . Observers perhaps observers . So then . Yeah , we get Pearl Harbor . And uh I still think From Here to Eternity is a great war movie . Um it was written by a guy who served in the pre pre Pearl Harbor Army and I still like Tora Tora Tora , although not , although not Pearl Harbor . Pearl Harbor was one hit my , well , now Tor Torra Tora was a was a great film and From Here to Eternity as well . I mean that was , that was really I was , I worked in those same barracks that they used in the in at Schofield Barracks in there and . Um , you know , we know of the attack on Pearl Harbor . We know it was , you know , an attack against naval installations , but it was more than that . How was the army involved on that day ? Oh yes , um . Well , the army was very involved . The army had an enormous presence in in the Hawaiian Islands . Uh , we knew the war was coming we didn't know where it was . We had broken the Japanese code . We knew the Japanese were going to attack . We just didn't know where and generally the assumptions were that it would be in the Philippines or Southeast Asia , that those were the main trouble spots . The idea that a Japanese fleet . Would um come all the way across the Pacific and strike with naval air against against Pearl Harbor just . Does not seem to have occurred and uh . We weren't ready . Uh , Marshall was out horseback riding on the morning of the attack , leisurely Sunday . He had sent a warning to Pearl Harbor , but it went by commercial telegram and didn't arrive until after the attack had already started . Uh , the commander in Pearl Harvey , Pearl Harbor , uh , Lieutenant General Walter Short . Uh , was more concerned about saboteurs among the population , which was largely Japanese American . He was more concerned about saboteurs and consequently he parked his planes wingtip to wing tip on at Wheeler and Hickam Fields , and that was the Army Air Forces or the Air Air Forces . It's still the Army Air Corps at this point , OK , yeah , and the army took heavy losses when the attack came and the main Japanese objective was the battleships , but But they also went after army barracks , supply depots , hangars , and , and the runways at Hickam and Wheeler where all these planes were out there vulnerable wingtip to wingtip . In all , they destroyed 164 planes and seriously damaged another 128 . Um , and the army lost 700 people in in this attack , not , not quite like the loss of life on the Arizona , but , but , uh , still , still the , the army took some , took some losses . And then there was an immediate mobilization too . I mean , uh , Hawaii had a plan to defend against invasion and and that's what the army divisions that were there at the time they spread out . Yeah , well , generally around the country you have the reaction that . The army adapted plans to guard dams , factories , key points against saboteurs , and , and those plans went into effect . Um , there had been some preparation in that regard , but , uh , still , uh , next day the United States declares war on Japan and Germany and Italy declared war on the United States , which is an interesting on December 11th , which was an interesting . Developments since uh could Roosevelt have gotten a declaration of war against those other countries even though we already were practically in a war in the North Atlantic . Yeah and then um and then we just briefly talked about the the Philippines but of course General MacArthur was there . Yeah , yeah , at the time , so he , he was in command there and then so it just , I don't want to go too far in past Pearl Harbor , we're gonna save that for the next episode but just briefly in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor , the next 2-3 weeks , basically what happened . Well , the army just mobilized I think well , went on alert really I think what you got is like in the United States Omar Bradley was at Fort Benning , Georgia . He was a commandant there and . He at the infantry school and he , he sent troops to protect key facilities near near uh nearby in those areas , um . And that's that's generally what the army did of course we were quickly at war in the Philippines and uh and then those those troops came under attack fairly quickly , although we'll we'll cover most of that in the next episode . Yeah and and it reminds me , you know , of 9/11 uh 0 yeah you know I was a reservist at the time and I wasn't at home . I was in uh in Atlanta and . Um , yeah , it was the same thing but everything was we're all calling in where do we go ? where do I report , what do we do ? and . There were a lot of comparisons at that time and I remember that time to Pearl Harbor and and uh the impact of the impact of 9/11 . Yeah , not knowing what was next and just like that . Isolationism went out of out of neutrality went out of fat when you previously when you had had a lot of very um prestigious Americans who . Who opposed any aid to Britain and uh who did not want the United States to get involved um a lot of , a lot of people around the country um of course by this point the communists wanted America to get involved because the Soviet Union had been attacked so . I know we still had the of course the draft , but there was a lot of volunteers in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor just like we saw after 9/11 , yeah , the rush to volunteer , um , that that volunteer ethic , my country is under attack and . And a lot of sentiment . Let's go get the Japanese , which , yeah , we can talk more about strategy yeah but good I think that that does a great job in setting up the the strategic setting for what was coming , the state of the army and uh we'll get more into that , um , you know , significant year of 1942 tuned in in the next episode but before we close , um , it's time for our segment called Whoa Trivia . So is there a piece of army trivia about these interwar years or mobilization that that you wanna share ? What does the phrase Ohio mean ? Yeah , I was gonna say the phrase Ohio , um , that state down south as a native of Michigan . Yeah , other than it being a Japanese word uh for I I think a greeting , but I don't know what so how , how does that apply here ? Ohio ? Well , in the summer of 1941 . Before Congress renewed the draft Act , draft Act in the service of all those conscriptees . Uh , the word Ohio popped up in a lot of barracks , you know , scroll , it's kind of like Kilroy , popped up in a lot of barracks , Ohio , and when asked what that meant , the servicemen responded , I'm over the hill in October . Over the hill and what does that mean ? That means once the draft act expires , I'm out of here . Oh , OK , so they're all planning just to do their duty and , and get out and get out , right ? Yes , they . That my duty will be served but unfortunately for them , the Congress said you have to by one vote said you have to stick around for a little bit longer and then of course came Pearl Harbor . Everybody had to stick around regardless . Thank you for that and uh thank you Doctor Hogan for all of your insights today about the state of the army in the years leading up to World War 2 and if anyone wants to learn more about the events leading up to World War 2 or learn more about Army history in general , I encourage you to explore our website at history.army.mil . And if you want to experience army history every day then visit us on social media , on Facebook , Twitter and Instagram and uh you know we have a great series of books about World War 2 , our publications that are all available as free PDF downloads online or you can purchase hard hard copies if you would like . We have pamphlets and uh uh our Green Books , a Green Book series , which is um an amazing series about World War 2 so make sure you check all that out on our website . Thank you everyone for joining us today on the United States Army History and Heritage podcast for the center of military history . I'm Lee Reynolds , and until next time . We're history . The views expressed in this podcast reflect those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views , policies , or opinions of the US Army or Department of Defense . For more information about the Army's proud history and heritage , go to history.army.mil .